Do you think the ___ Orb line of spells are too powerful?

[gnfnrf]

KarinsDad, I suppose that we just have a very different experience of the application of area evocations, then.

In my experience, nearly every encounter has multiple opportunities to cast a fireball or lightning bolt that does not affect allies. My "n/2+1/2" formula is intended to take into account the difficulty of targeting in later rounds, and on average, my estimate of the times that no area evocation could be safely targeted.

Obviously, your estimate differs greatly. Perhaps we tend to play in very different game environments, or perhaps one of us has a skewed perception of the situation. Using demonweb pits was intended to remove such biases from the discussion, and I think it did to some extent (at least, it provided a viable set of foes covering several levels), but it can't remove this one.

I have one more idea that I will try, which I may post to the original thread, and will possibly be more useful to both of us.

--
gnfnrf

 

[Nail]

FWIW:

I'm currently DMing a party with a Warmage (and thus access to both AoE and Orb spells spontaneously).

As a DM, a challenge that I can no longer present is an enemy with Energy Resistance. The Orb spells allow the Warmage to overcome this easily. I admit this is because of the synergy between the Warmage class and Orb spells, but if those orb spells weren't there.....

Addressing the use per encounter of AoE spells: I'd say (IMC only!), AoE spells are not usable about one out of every four encounters. There's either cramped quarters, poor LoS, or mixed melee. Orb spells work just fine in a much higher percentage of conditions (again, IMC).

[EDIT] Since I've removed the "SR = No" from the Orb spells, that particular issue is a moot point for my campaign.

 

[KarinsDad]

Addressing the use per encounter of AoE spells: I'd say (IMC only!), AoE spells are not usable about one out of every four encounters. There's either cramped quarters, poor LoS, or mixed melee. Orb spells work just fine in a much higher percentage of conditions (again, IMC).

Ditto for my experience.

Some non-damaging AoE effects happen more often like Entangle or Web or Obscuring Mist or even Stinking Cloud. But, not damaging ones. We've had more experiences with PCs including other PCs in non-damaging AoEs, but very few experiences with PCs including other PCs in damaging AoEs. It has to be a serious "otherwise, we all die" for that to be done. But, those are situations where Orbs are still viable.

 

[KarinsDad]

KarinsDad, I suppose that we just have a very different experience of the application of area evocations, then.

In my experience, nearly every encounter has multiple opportunities to cast a fireball or lightning bolt that does not affect allies.

Multiple? Nearly every?

There is a difference between the situation allowing for it and it being a optimal decision for that situation.


Situations where Orbs are often better:

One large monster like a Hydra or Dragon. Either type of spell could be used, but Orbs are obviously superior with a decent to hit chance.

Enemies holding hostages.

Enemies in cramped quarters. By cramped quarters, a 15x15 room is small enough to prevent many AoE attacks due to allies in the way.

Darkness, Obscuring Mist, or other area concealment spells prevent LOS to good targeting locations. Or even casting spells outdoors at night.

Enemies who might have Evasion or Improved Evasion (such as Monk or Rogue types).

In town situations with civilians in the way.

Ambush situations where enemies are not closely packed together and/or may be surrounding the group.

Situations where enemies quickly get in melee with PCs.


Situations where AoEs are often better:

A primo situation occurs with multiple enemies close together and not yet within melee range.

Multiple enemies close together behind cover or normal concealment.

Enemies with concealment / blinking / miss chance spells up.

Multiple enemies are wounded and fleeing in the same general area.


Sure, one could cast Fireball at a Dragon or cast it so that it only hits two enemies, but even though the opportunity exists, it is not necessarily a good choice to do so.

 

[RigaMortus2]

FWIW, I've played in many games where the party wizard casts a Fireball on one guy (and not even a BBEG) just to deal damage/kill him. Personally, if I were playing the Wizard, I would be more conservative with using my AoE spells against one single person. But that's just me. Seemed to be effective for the player and our party.

 

[frankthedm]

Orbs do more damage than I am cozy with for the conjuration school.

If Blasting needs more damage, I say increase the damage the current spells already do.

If conjuration wants to get around SR, It should be dropping a mundane boulder on the target {Thus having to deal with AC and DR.]

Also I am none too keen on touch atatcks as being equal to saves. If that is supposed to be the case, one's touch AC should be minimum of 10+reflex save bonus.

 

[Nifft]

Also I am none too keen on touch atatcks as being equal to saves. If that is supposed to be the case, one's touch AC should be minimum of 10+reflex save bonus.

Welcome to Star Wars Saga Edition!

Cheers, -- N

 

[frankthedm]

Welcome to Star Wars Saga Edition!

Ahh, nice rule. Yoink.

Edit, But does that factor in size mods?

 

[Treacherous_B]

I love the Orb spells, but since I'm a realist I voted "moderately overpowered". Perhaps it's just one experience with a bad GM, but the first few times you fight a critter with spell resistance so strong it's almost impossible/impossible to overcome, you start to appreciate being able to ignore that problem.

I actually think they might fit better as Warmage exclusive spells, as they are the "blast you in the face with minimal to no other utility spells" class. If wanting to abuse them meant defaulting you to one class I think the problem goes away.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Ahh, nice rule. Yoink.

Edit, But does that factor in size mods?

Star Wars Saga actually uses for their Reflex Defense (which doubles as both AC and standard Reflex saving) is [10 + Dex mod + character level + one-time class bonus (usually +1 or +2) + size modifier (+1 for small, in the case of Ewoks)]. So as you rise in character level, so do your saves/defenses.

Armor also factors into the Reflex Defense equation. It replaces your character level bonus if it is higher (you take the higher of the two). Generally speaking, armor is good for lower level characters, but as you rise in character level, the need for armor is less (not sure it makes sense, but I like it, especially in Star Wars where you don't see Jedi running around in Flak Jackets).

Also, the cool thing about the new "defenses" is, you no longer make saving throws . The attacker has to beat your set defense and if they do, they hit you, if they don't, they miss. This saves some time as you are now rolling less die.

Sorry to go off on the SW: Saga rant

PS - You may have known all this already, wasn't sure from your "Yoink" comment. Made it sound like you weren't aware of how SW: Saga did things. If you are "in the know" about Saga, my apologies and please ignore