D&D 5E Do you want D&D Next to succeed?

Crazy Jerome

First Post
As long as people aren't spouting off about particular features or rules in Next without bothering to read and try them first, or in some cases, outright lying about them after they try them or have been proved wrong after earlier spouting, then I'll count us all ahead of the game.

It's a low bar, but if we can hit it, it would be nice.
 

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mlund

First Post
In general people will be indifferent or hostile towards a game they don't want to play. It takes attention away from the game they want to play, and they need the interest of others to have a good gaming experience. If a new game comes along and takes my good players away and leaves me with a choice between having bunch of undesirables as my gaming pool or changing games for something I like less I'd be a bit sour on the whole thing.

I want Next to succeed, but I also want its success to be pinned to giving me the game I want to play.

- Marty Lund
 

Shadeydm

First Post
Little thing called the edition war. You may have noticed it. Marketing is a big part of any product's success, and in a niche hobby like ours, word-of-mouth (or internet) is a big part of it. Word of mouth can be negative, as well as positive - and based on irrational rejection as well as personal experience. So, yes.

So you are saying a handful of irrational people on the internet killed what was otherwise a successful game? Really? Are you one of those people who don't believe we landed on the moon either, that it was just a conspiracy? lol
 


Shadeydm

First Post
I never said 'handful,' nor exclusively on the internet. The segment of the community gripped by the zietgiest of the edition war was not tiny.

So all the people who didn't like 4E were irrational? Only irrational people didn't like 4E? If a lot of people who were not irrational didn't like 4E then i'd say your issue is with 4E's designers. I just really don't see how edition warriors can kill a game. Your really not making any sense.
 

SteveC

Doing the best imitation of myself
Of course! D&D to a very large extent is the rpg industry, and if it takes a dive, RPGs as anything but a hobby goes with it. I hope 5E is something I want to play, and I think that the next playtest will really give me an idea of whether or not it will be.

For a true story: when 2E came out, I started to be disenchanted with D&D, and I started to learn about and play other games. For many, many years I primarily played HERO. Towards the end of the 2E era, the game came back to the sort of thing that I enjoyed, so I came back with it.

In the mean time, I still played some D&D, but I found that there were many games that (for me) were better and that I enjoyed more. I suspect that the same will be the case here. The one thing I will miss will be the good conversation I have on ENworld, but I'll still drop by every now and then.

I think wishing for D&D to fail (or any game, for that manner) is the worst part of fandom, and something we can all do without.
 

Of course! D&D to a very large extent is the rpg industry, and if it takes a dive, RPGs as anything but a hobby goes with it.
RPGs are something other than a hobby?

For many, many years I primarily played HERO. Towards the end of the 2E era, the game came back to the sort of thing that I enjoyed, so I came back with it.
Similar experience, here, though I continued a campaign half way through 2e's run, I rarely played D&D, preferring Hero and even Storyteller.

I think wishing for D&D to fail (or any game, for that manner) is the worst part of fandom, and something we can all do without.
We certainly could have done without it the last 4 years...
 

Hussar

Legend
Absolutely. I am not sure why anyone would want D&D Next to fail. :hmm:

Just catching up on the thread, but, after 4 years of 4e, I'm not sure why anyone would think that there aren't a fairly vocal group of gamers out there that are cheerleading the failure of an edition/gaming company.
 

Hussar

Legend
So, rendering an opinion constitutes subversion?

In that case, there were a lot of people who worked towards the demise of the prior D&D editions, as well as those nefarious writers trying to sabotage The Dark Knight Rises by giving it bad reviews.

There are certainly people who dislike 4e (and who dislike many other things), but I seriously doubt their opinions constitute a meaningful effort to make it fail, nor am I seeing how they are inherently "irrational". Or is the case that people have done something above and beyond giving their opinions?

Personally, I'll be looking at 5e with a critical eye and speaking my mind on it (as with any significant development in a hobby of mine), but there's nothing more to it than that.

No, it's more like people who go to sites like CNN, see anouncements for 4e, and spend considerable time edition warring in the comments. Hrm, nothing says, "Come to my hobby" like seeing a bunch of nerdrage geeks spazzing out about an edition in a public forum.

Like RangerW says, there's nothing wrong at all with criticism. But, the outright misinformation that has gotten spread around for years, all in the name of "proving" that edition X is teh suxxors goes far beyond someone simply speaking their mind.
 


SteveC

Doing the best imitation of myself
RPGs are something other than a hobby?
That's a good question, and I admit I could have explained it better. I was thinking in terms of model trains or similar hobbies that once were much broader and more mainstream. Model trains are still made, but they are much more of a niche hobby.

To expand on that: D&D has a brand and that brand has value, despite being criminally underused. D&D is roleplaying to the general public, who've never heard of GURPS, HERO or Pathfinder.

I would argue that D&D could be used in much the same way that Marvel started to use comic books, where the comic books themselves were the least important part of the equation... they became part of a huge media empire. D&D is the only part of the RPG industry where this is true.
 


Ahnehnois

First Post
No, it's more like people who go to sites like CNN, see anouncements for 4e, and spend considerable time edition warring in the comments. Hrm, nothing says, "Come to my hobby" like seeing a bunch of nerdrage geeks spazzing out about an edition in a public forum.

Like RangerW says, there's nothing wrong at all with criticism. But, the outright misinformation that has gotten spread around for years, all in the name of "proving" that edition X is teh suxxors goes far beyond someone simply speaking their mind.
Still skeptical that any of this had any impact on sales.

For perspective, the time leading up to and immediately after the 4e release is when I went off to college and took a hiatus from D&D. When my group reconvened, we picked 3e back up without ever even looking at 4e. I don't remember seeing much news about 4e, let alone any debates. This whole "edtion war" phenomenon was something I didn't learn about until a while later when I got back into message board like this one, saw the moderation steps that had been taken, and looked into it.

I don't think D&D, 4e in particular, or edition wars make a blip on the radar for most people outside the gaming hobby. Even the people I know who play tactical wargames or crpgs often don't understand what D&D is, let alone have any idea about editions or wars between them. So I'm very skeptical that newcomers were dissuaded by any incivility that occurred. As to the existing gaming population, I think they made their decisions for a variety of reasons, most of them having to do with cost, convenience, mechanics, advertising, or something else other than the naysayers. I bet some people read reviews and articles on the topic and were influenced by them, but those are not people rooting for the game to fail. The edition war debates themselves characteristically don't change anyone's mind about anything.

Moreover, I think the most impactful edition war salvos, the ones that did get outside of insular online debates, were WotC's own ad campaign, which dissed (3e) D&D pretty badly. So if anyone worked to make it fail, I'd say it was them.
 

trancejeremy

Adventurer
Well, I actually want it to fail. To the point where WOTC stops even putting out D&D any more.

For whatever reason, this hobby has a whole bunch of people who only seem to be interested in playing the latest incarnation of D&D. Not because they like it, but simply because it's D&D.

So what if there is no D&D? They'd finally be forced to move onto games that they want to play, not feel compelled to because of the brand name. And ultimately, they'd be happier for it. Rather than constantly have to argue and house rule stuff, maybe they could find a game that fits their playstyle. There's thousands of RPGs out there, surely one would come close.
 

Jacob Marley

First Post
Just catching up on the thread, but, after 4 years of 4e, I'm not sure why anyone would think that there aren't a fairly vocal group of gamers out there that are cheerleading the failure of an edition/gaming company.

Oh, I know that they are out there; it's their reasons for pooping in the sandbox* that I just don't understand.

No, it's more like people who go to sites like CNN, see anouncements for 4e, and spend considerable time edition warring in the comments. Hrm, nothing says, "Come to my hobby" like seeing a bunch of nerdrage geeks spazzing out about an edition in a public forum.

Sadly, these people exist in all walks of life.

* Edit: wanting it to fail.
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
RPGs are something other than a hobby?
Yes, sadly; somewhere along the line they turned into an industry. And it could be argued that this single development has already sunk three editions of D&D - those being 2e, 3e and 4e - they all collapsed (or in 4e's case, would have soon enough) under the bloat demanded by the industry.
trancejeremy said:
Well, I actually want it to fail. To the point where WOTC stops even putting out D&D any more.
WotC stopping production of D&D won't change anything - someone will come along and buy the D&D name and IP; and a great many people will still refer to their games as "D&D" even if the book they're using says something completely different on its cover.

Jack Sparrow

"Try as you might you can't sink it, mate: it's D&D."

/Jack Sparrow

Lan-"savvy?"-efan
 

DM Howard

Explorer
My one hope for D&D Next is when I ask someone "Hey, do you want to play some D&D?" There won't be the instant reply of "What edition?"

That being said I understand that achieving this requires many other things to fall into place correctly.
 

Dragonhelm

Knight of Solamnia
I should probably preface this by saying that I have played since 2e, and seen a number of edition changes.

Will you be happy if the game is popular, even if it's not one you'd want to play?

I think so. I realize that the RPG industry is stronger if D&D is strong.

Will you be willing to give it a try to support the D&D brand that has brought so many people years of fun, even if the rules aren't perfect? (And really, have you ever thought any version of D&D had perfect rules?)

I will definitely give it a try. However, I am at the point now that I don't feel like I have to stick with the latest edition.


Do you trust that the game designers are people who love gaming, who want to help others have fun, and who are trying to make a game that best encapsulates what they think the audience wants D&D to be?

I think they want what's best for D&D and D&D fans. I also think they are a business and must act in a financially responsible way.


Do you think that the benefits of having Hasbro's infrastructure to help market, distribute, and sell the game outweigh whatever limitations might be passed down from a corporate level?

I think having Hasbro help with that is great. Thing is, I don't fully know what limitations they might place.

Will you not begrudge your fellow gamers if they have different tastes than you?

I don't care what edition fellow gamers play. Just play! And support your fellow gamer's right to play what they want.



I know 5e isn't going to satisfy me wholly from a game mechanic perspective. But what would make me happy, what would excite me and bring joy that no system has in a decade, would be if my fellow gamers across the internet would realize that we share a hobby, and while our differences might mean we won't share a game with a given person, that shared love of RPGs should unify us.

Well said.



For me, I am tired of edition changes. I will give 5e a chance, as it reminds me some of C&C and seems to be the blend of editions I have been wanting. However, I do not feel beholden to it.

I kind of want an edition of D&D where everything can come together from all of the editions I have played. In some ways, Pathfinder is a good option, being a system I can easily convert to from AD&D and as it easily ties into 3e, including all my 3e Dragonlance materials. Pathfinder has a few 4e-isms I like too.

That being said, I have also considered going with a heavily house-ruled Castles & Crusades. I love the basics of the system, and that it can be built upon. I just wonder if it might be a little too simplistic at times.
 

Pickles JG

First Post
My one hope for D&D Next is when I ask someone "Hey, do you want to play some D&D?" There won't be the instant reply of "What edition?"

That being said I understand that achieving this requires many other things to fall into place correctly.

Well at the very least there will be the "What modules are you using?" discussion which looks like the same thing pretending not to be. There will be a very large number of combinations of modules not just a handful like editions.

And on that topic you are hoping for the demise of Pathfinder 4e & all the other hold outs.
 

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
Will you be happy if the game is popular, even if it's not one you'd want to play?
Will I happily go on playing 4e after 5e hits the shelves? Yes.
Will I be less happy when 4e groups become harder to find? Yes.

Will you be willing to give it a try to support the D&D brand that has brought so many people years of fun, even if the rules aren't perfect? (And really, have you ever thought any version of D&D had perfect rules?)
Will I give it a try if a friend says "Dude, I'm gonna run a 5e game! Are you in?" Yes.
Will I ever DM it? Hel no.

Do you trust that the game designers are people who love gaming, who want to help others have fun, and who are trying to make a game that best encapsulates what they think the audience wants D&D to be?
Yes. But the road to hel is paved with good intentions.

Do you think that the benefits of having Hasbro's infrastructure to help market, distribute, and sell the game outweigh whatever limitations might be passed down from a corporate level?
Don't care, doesn't matter. Hasbro owning and using the brand won't change for a while.

Will you not begrudge your fellow gamers if they have different tastes than you?
Only if they get preachy.

Let's stand behind D&D Next. What do you say?
I didn't house rule 2e because I was too young to realize how borked the rules are. I house ruled the crepe out of 3.x, but still managed to have fun. I play the Complete 4th Edition with a total of two house rules, and have even more fun.

I can already tell that 5e would require a lot of house rules, which is a big step backward for me. So I'll sit over here, DMing a 4e group, while 5e runs its course.
 

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