Does being pinned give you the -5 Dex score?

[KarinsDad]

Yea. This actually came up in our last game....try grappling a medium sized dragon...and pinning it with the mouth shut so it cant breathe(shadow dragon with its negative level breath...ick)

Except that you cannot really do this.

You can prevent it from speaking.

You cannot prevent it from breathing. It does not state that its mouth is shut, it states that the opponent cannot speak.

Course, Hyp will counter that it cannot breath when grappling anyway since Supernatural abilities are not on the grappling list of things that can be done, but it is fairly obvious that those rules were intended for the PCs whereas Monsters and their Extraordinary, Spell-Like and Supernatural Abilities were never even considered.

Stopping a Dragon or some other creature with a good sized bite attack from speaking? It's pretty strange sounding. Most people couldn't stop a good sized dog from barking.

 

[KarinsDad]

So do I. I suspect that it was changed from "Dex reduced to 0 when pinned" to "-4 on AC when pinned" at some point during development, and they missed the footnote when they updated the rules. Or not, since both modifiers are mentioned on the table.

However, I'll certainly keep it in mind now. I'd missed that little tidbit and I play a character who frequently grapples.

It does make a certain amount of sense though.

With a Dex of 0, even the Reflex save of a Rogue will drop considerably. I don't think a pinned Rogue should have a good chance of avoiding a Reflex save.

On the other hand, this is also a dichotomy in the rules. If you are pinned, your Dex goes to zero, but you are not helpless. If your Dex goes to zero, you are paralyzed and helpless (according to the DMG).

They should have stated that your Dex goes to 1 instead of 0. IMO. The modifier to AC and Reflex saves would have been the same (-5), but the Ability loss rule would not have conflicted.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

IMC I'd definately let a pinning character keep a dragon from using its bite or breath weapon.

Dragon is sort of lizard-shaped, croc is sort of lizard-shaped, and that crazy Australian guy is always grabbing crocs about the mouth and holding it closed. If anything, I'd say that it would be somewhat easier to hold the jaw mechanism of a serpentine-headed creature closed than a humanoid creature, as you've got more surface area to work with.

Besides, it's just a cool idea. That nets some hazy rules at my table.

--fje

 

[KarinsDad]

Dragon is sort of lizard-shaped, croc is sort of lizard-shaped, and that crazy Australian guy is always grabbing crocs about the mouth and holding it closed. If anything, I'd say that it would be somewhat easier to hold the jaw mechanism of a serpentine-headed creature closed than a humanoid creature, as you've got more surface area to work with.

I suspect that the crazy Australian guy trained to do it though and a croc doesn't have other weapons (like claws, wing bashes, etc.) with the exception of its tail which you'll notice that the crazy Australian guy is nowhere near.

Plus with humans, you are not really keeping their jaw closed. You tend to be covering their mouth with your hand and you can still get bit doing it. Hard to do that on most creatures. IMO.

Just because some designer at WotC wrote a silly rule doesn't mean that it should be allowed when it doesn't make sense.

 

[Caliban]

On the other hand, sometimes it should be allowed when it makes good heroic cinema. Sometimes the PC's get to do cool stuff to.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I suspect that the crazy Australian guy trained to do it though and a croc doesn't have other weapons (like claws, wing bashes, etc.) with the exception of its tail which you'll notice that the crazy Australian guy is nowhere near.

You'll notice that they removed the 3.0 rules that let a dragon use all of its natural attacks in a grapple.

Still, dragons have high Str, full BAB, and many HD for their CR, so they are very difficult to grapple. If you had a reaping mauler polymorphed into a giant constrictor snake you might be able to pull it off.

 

[KarinsDad]

On the other hand, sometimes it should be allowed when it makes good heroic cinema. Sometimes the PC's get to do cool stuff to.

I think good heroic cinema is great.

I also think preventing a Beholder from doing practically anything at all because it only has a Grapple of 12 when most 11th to 15th level Fighters have a Grapple of 16 to 24 is taking advantage of a mistake in the rules (i.e. you cannot do any actions except what is listed in the grapple rules, and pinning preventing speaking = preventing a 3+ foot tall bite from a beholder = preventing a breath weapon from a dragon?).

 

[KarinsDad]

You'll notice that they removed the 3.0 rules that let a dragon use all of its natural attacks in a grapple.

Still, dragons have high Str, full BAB, and many HD for their CR, so they are very difficult to grapple. If you had a reaping mauler polymorphed into a giant constrictor snake you might be able to pull it off.

I prefer the Beholder example where it is a piece of cake (for that CR).

I also think allowing a humanoid multiple attacks due to a BAB > 5 and preventing a monster from using claw/claw/bite is another error in the grapple rules. What is good for the goose should be good for the gander. I think monsters should rip apart PCs in a grapple. IMO.

 

[Caliban]

Sometimes common sense has to fill in the gaps that the rules leave.

I have no problem with creatures using supernatural abilities in a grapple, I'd just enforce a concentration check like that for using spell-like abilities.

As for the dragon thing, I'd probably allow blocking a breath weapon with a second grapple check after a pin (instead of doing damage, you hold their mouth shut). Or I might allow it instead of a pin. DM's get to make judgement calls like this.

 

[Caliban]

I also think allowing a humanoid multiple attacks due to a BAB > 5 and preventing a monster from using claw/claw/bite is another error in the grapple rules. What is good for the goose should be good for the gander. I think monsters should rip apart PCs in a grapple. IMO.

Monsters get additional grapple checks due to a high BAB just like humanoids. What's good for the goose IS good for the gander.

And monsters with Improved Grab and/or Constrict do rip apart PC's in a grapple. It's just not an automatic win for all monsters.