D&D 5E Does Eberron need to be high fantasy?

[rebbeman]

First, as others have said we need to define High Magic vs High Fantasy. The way magic works in Eberron was always about the idea that if you have a lot of magic around, as seems be the default for the DnD system, it would make sense for that magic to get used like technology and become more used for the masses and for commercial purposes and convenience for the non-magical folk. I always thought this made lots of sense but don't see it as "High Fantasy". Its more Mage-punk.

But even if you don't like the prevalence of magic, that is only one element of the setting. there are other aspects of the setting that could be used without this approach to magic, especially the political intrigue, the post-war conflicts and the adventure and exploration. These are all part of teh setting that don't rely on High magic.

 

[Beleriphon]

One thing I feel that is important to note is that, even in 3e, Eberron was assumed to be lower powered than other settings - even the most powerful spellcaster in the game, Jaela Daran, head of the Silver Flame, is a level 16 cleric, but only while inside the main church, severely limiting her power. No NPC that I'm aware of is stronger than her; I doubt anyone has access to level 9 magic. And there are books that specifically state that Eberron was never designed to use epic levels.

Olian is a 20th level druid. But he's also an awakened fir tree, and quite literally rooted in place.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

With all of this talk about settings I have been thinking about which ones I like and dislike.

When I first heard about Eberron I was enthusiastic. Steampunk D&D? Yes please. But then it turned out to be high fantasy so I made it work in Ravenloft instead.

So I think I don't like Eberron. But then, I also didn't like FR in 3e either. It was much too high fantasy for me.

In 5e I like FR just fine. I think it is partly due to it being the core setting so they need to pull things back a bit. But moreso I think it is the edition itself. When orcs are still a threat to 10th level characters the world is different. When you don't have merchants selling goods for coppers alongside others selling magic items for thousands of gold pieces, the world is different. That comes through.

I am no Eberron expert, so I ask, could a 5e version keep the feel and flavour of it while also being grounded in traditional fantasy tropes?

I am curious because the big difference here is that Eberron was made in 3e so maybe its world was modeled on the conceits of the edition whereas FR has reverted to its older roots?

I think a big part of the point of Eberron is to not be grounded in traditional fantasy tropes. That's why it's fans like it, IMO.

Eberron isn't traditional fantasy, if by traditional fantasy you mean Tolkeinish medieval europe inspired fantasy.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think this is exactly right. And I would expand on it a little.

There are different types of canned campaign worlds. There are some, like Forgotten Realms ("FR") and Greyhawk ("GH") that are, essentially, open. Yes, they have a lot of flavor that can be used, but they are also relatively generic in certain aspects. Are there people that incorporate as much "real" FR and GH lore as possible? Sure. But there are also many people that use either as just as a starting point for their own high-fantasy campaigns.

Other campaign worlds, such as Dark Sun ("DS") and Eberron ("EB") are much more specific. You don't play DS or EB to play generic high-fantasy D&D. That doesn't mean you can't modify them- you can put your gnomes into DS if you want to. But the question you should ask yourself is why? Both DS and EB, for example, were created with a great deal of specificity in mind, and a number of choices that went into that narrative.

Which means that when dealing with these specific campaign worlds, if you're looking at major modifications (and turning EB into a low-magic world would be a HUGE modification), a question you might want to ask yourself is this- why do I like this campaign world? For example, if you just like EB for some of the races (you're a warforged fan), it might be better just importing warforged into your own world. If you like certain concepts (more politicking), import those concepts.

In the end, do as you wish. But sometimes it is better to borrow than to change.

agreed. With Eberron, I would say that the commonality of minor magics is a foundational, inseparable part of the setting. You can't subtract it and still have Eberron. It would be like putting a giant, lush, safe land of forests and rivers in the middle of Dark Sun.

Eberron has long distance communication, trains, people made of living wood and stone, magical plumbing and street lights, airships...I mean...it's not traditional fantasy. I love Dragonlance, and FR is usable, but Eberron isn't and shouldn't be generic traditional fantasy.

 

[Beleriphon]

agreed. With Eberron, I would say that the commonality of minor magics is a foundational, inseparable part of the setting. You can't subtract it and still have Eberron. It would be like putting a giant, lush, safe land of forests and rivers in the middle of Dark Sun.

Eberron has long distance communication, trains, people made of living wood and stone, magical plumbing and street lights, airships...I mean...it's not traditional fantasy. I love Dragonlance, and FR is usable, but Eberron isn't and shouldn't be generic traditional fantasy.

More than just Eberron not being traditional D&Desque fantasy, its also a kitchen sink setting. Everything fits somewhere, it was always meant as a ground up D&D setting exclusively. Its part of the reason that Planescape as much of the same aesthetic, because D&D is just weird in terms of what it draws inspiration from. We've got Lovecraftian horrors like Beholders and Mind Flayers in the same setting as Abrhamic fiends and angels as well as pixies, leprechauns, goblins, elves and fourteen types of golems.

Eberron takes all of those things and makes them work together, usually be modifying the base assumptions about where those things come from to at least some degree so they are all linked to the core assumptions of the setting. The setting then gives you excuses about why new monsters can be used: The Mournland, Kyber, extraplanar, mad-artificers, everything to ever explain why something new is there is baked right into the setting! Its the perfect D&D setting in that sense since everything, and anything, that gets published for the game can be explained with complete confidence

 

[doctorbadwolf]

More than just Eberron not being traditional D&Desque fantasy, its also a kitchen sink setting. Everything fits somewhere, it was always meant as a ground up D&D setting exclusively. Its part of the reason that Planescape as much of the same aesthetic, because D&D is just weird in terms of what it draws inspiration from. We've got Lovecraftian horrors like Beholders and Mind Flayers in the same setting as Abrhamic fiends and angels as well as pixies, leprechauns, goblins, elves and fourteen types of golems.

Eberron takes all of those things and makes them work together, usually be modifying the base assumptions about where those things come from to at least some degree so they are all linked to the core assumptions of the setting. The setting then gives you excuses about why new monsters can be used: The Mournland, Kyber, extraplanar, mad-artificers, everything to ever explain why something new is there is baked right into the setting! Its the perfect D&D setting in that sense since everything, and anything, that gets published for the game can be explained with complete confidence

True, and because of those purpose built feel, new stuff doesn't feel forced. Things like goliaths, dragonborn, eladrin, etc work just fine without even much explanation, and without feeling forced. I actually think the 4e Eberron books tried too hard to fit things in, rather than just finding places for them, especially with Eladrin. IMO, that wasn't even needed. THey could have just said, Eladrin are just elves. SOme elves, regardless of culture, are a bit more magical, probably as a result of Giantish experiments, long ago.

Or," in recent years, a small number of elves have developed a stronger connection to the magical energies of Eberron, and display almost dragonmark-esque powers as a result. No one knows why, but at least one dragon has been poking around asking questions about these elves, and tensions between Argonnessen and Arenal are running higher than they have in at least a generation as a result. "

But Dragonborn felt like "here's a thing that has always been true, and we just never made note of it.", as did Goliaths.

My only regret for the setting is that there aren't more airships/more non Lathander airships, and other cools things like paperwings from the Abhorsen books.
But the political, cultural and moral complexity of the setting, combined with the practical, scientific approach to magic (in terms of how it's treated in the world) is at least a third of what appeals to me about the setting .That, and I love the idea of playing an Indiana Jones and/or hardboiled PI noir inspired campaign in DnD.

Right now, my wife and some friends and I have an ongoing Eberron campaign where I play a Shadar-kai Inquisitive who spent a few decades in a fighting arenas in a pseudo Persian area of Droam before winning his freedom, and eventually ended up in Sharn and found work investigating things, etc. My wife plays a disgraced Knight of the Ebon Skull with anger issues who is learning from my character how to control her emotions. It ends up very much a mix of old noir pulp stories, gaslight fantasy, and Dresden Files. And I'm not sure how well such a campaign could work in FR, for instance.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Personally, I don't consider Eberron a magepunk setting. "Punk" strongly implies a dystopian, "bleak" society (cyberpunk especially), and typically involves projecting "industrial"/postmodern attitudes (am I just a cog in the machine? does "good" even mean anything? Etc.) into a setting that's decidedly outside the present day. Eberron, at least based on what I've heard, doesn't strike me as a "bleak" world. The Mournland is certainly a dark cloud, and the intentional "greying" of religious sources of truth contributes something in that direction, sure. But everything I've read suggests a great deal of hope, and pride, and generally a societal attitude of "progress is happening, we're getting better and better, we're going in good directions."

I think a much better, more accurate description of Eberron is magepulp. It's exciting high adventure; sure, some of the heroes are gritty and unwashed, and the authorities are sometimes dead wrong. But both of them are mostly "white that's got grubby," and their opponents are typically Seriously Bad People, perhaps not "Indiana Jones vs. Nazis" level, but never "Judge Dredd vs. Rebels" either.

 

[rebbeman]

I agree, Magepulp is a better description!

On another note, if someone really wants to do a lower magic version of Eberron, I always found the Iron Kingdom setting from Privateer Press to have some similar beats (nations recently at war, political intrigue, magic fueled tech) but grittier.

 

[Krakenspire]

High fantasy is defined as fantasy set in an alternative, fictional ("secondary") world, rather than "the real", or "primary" world. The secondary world is usually internally consistent, but its rules differ from those of the primary world. By contrast, low fantasy is characterized by being set in the primary, or "real" world, or a rational and familiar fictional world, with the inclusion of magical elements.

So by the above definition please tell me a single D&D world that isn't high fantasy. All dungeons and dragons are set in a different world where magic exists. Low fantasy doesn't exist unless its a homebrew or perhaps a D20 modern concept. So unless you don't want to play D&D then you are most likely playing high fantasy.

Now as for the feel of Eberron, being a massive junkie of the world I can say that it can feel like FR but it shouldn't. First thing is magic is common. And by common I mean for sale. Only the poorest area's of Sharn don't have everbright lanterns in the street. The whole city is in a manifest zone that allows it to create sky scrapers. Wizards and mystical cabals don't make magic flying ships, magewrights do. The magical versions of smiths or tradespeople, which you can find pretty much everywhere.

This means that magic is essentially industrialized and that gives it automatically a completely different (and more internally logical) feel than FR.

The second big difference is that characters are actually hero's that can and will have massive effects on the world. There are very few NPC's that have PC classes above 12th level and usually they were quite the movers and shakers.
There are more that have a mix of NPC classes and PC classes that go above that (ie: 11 warrior/5 fighter redcloack commander , or 18 adept blood of vol priest, both who live in Sharn)
The only two NPC's that I can remember that could be straight PC's is Jaela Daran cleric 18 within the confines of Flamekeep and Moradin the Fleshweaver transmuter 18 - elvish wizard who lives in Droam. Even Lord of the Blades was level 12, and Kauis I was level 11 (but a vampire so....). Vol was a level 16 wizard and a lich.

As soon a characters got to 5th level they are capable of things that very few others in the world were capable of without massive magical investment or money. Unlike FR where every other wizard/sorcerer can case a fireball, in Eberron that was rare and special.

Finally a comment on steam punk. Steam punk is a very specific genre that is very neo-Victorian in nature. Eberron has some neo-Victorian feel to it. Xendrik the "dark continent" can feel very much like colonialism before the First World War. But Eberron is far beyond that, closer to the interwar period but before the great depression. In many ways it's the roaring 20's, Casablanca, The Maltese Falcon, Indiana Jones, Al Capone, and the rise of new powers (Soviet Union, Imperial Japan). It has no neo-Victorian art or architecture in its design and that is a critical component of most steampunk. It's not retrofuturism at all.

And the final difference is that in FR there is evil and there is good. No grey area. Sure moral challenges but no grey area. Red dragons bad. Gold dragons good. In Eberron morality is almost always grey. The greatest proponent for democracy in the Breland is Lawful Evil. Democracy is good right? But the guy who's pushing it is a real jerk. What about Karrnath who created massive undead armies during the war. Faustian bargain to save the country. Church of the Silver flame... LG religion. Responsible for massive repression and executions in the former Aundarian city of Thaliost.