D&D 5E Does Eberron need to be high fantasy?

[Krakenspire]

Wow. Not only do I have no respect for your "who cares what the setting's creator thinks" attitude, but you didn't even respond in any way to the other points.
Done.

Relax there. Don't put words in my mouth. If I didn't care what Keith thinks then I wouldn't read his blog now would I. He has a number of posts on how disappointed he is. I simply stated that despite Mr. Bakers original intent the Silver Flame is not what it was originally intended. Either way you make the world what you want.

As for Thrane not being what Keith wants here's a quote from him regarding that.

Q: A very interesting point in my opinion is the conflict between the ideals of the Flame and the corruption and racism of the Church. For example about warforgeds. How are the lives of warforged living in Thrane?

A: This is a complicated issue. To begin with, let’s talk about racism in Thrane.

The 3.5 ECS says nothing about endemic racism in Thrane. This is a concept that was introduced in Five Nations, a book I didn’t work on. It’s not a concept I personally endorse. There’s nothing in the core beliefs of the Silver Flame that sets humanity apart or above other races. At its ultimate core it is about defending the children of Eberron and Siberys from the children of Khyber. Broadly interpreted it’s about protecting the innocent from supernatural evil… not “innocent humans.” ALL noble souls can strengthen the Flame after death, and it was originally kindled by a noble sacrifice made long before human civilization existed. Many sources feature nonhuman Thrane clerics of the Silver Flame, and one of Tira Miron’s most trusted allies was an elf avenger. Aundair doesn’t have a human majority, yet Thrane’s templars put themselves in harms way to defend Aundair from the lycanthropic threat. If anything, I would expect Thrane to have LESS racism than the other Five Nations as it is grounded in a faith that is driven to protect all innocents. So speaking personally: I didn’t come up with the idea of excessive racism in Thrane and it’s not something I embrace at my table or in my writing.

I added Q and A so people wouldn't get confused and also the bold and italics are my emphasis.

And this gem:

Historically, Thrane has the least consistency in its presentation by different authors. The corruption is often blown out of proportion, when a) the CotSF isn’t supposed to have MORE corruption than any other faith in Eberron, it’s simply that there IS corruption even in this altruistic institution; and b) the majority of that corruption is based in Breland. The zealotry becomes a focus, when Aundair is supposed to be the stronghold of the Pure Flame and Thrane the seat of the moderate faith. Heck, we can’t even get consistency on the fact that archery is an important cultural tradition.

So: there is a book that says that Thrane ruthlessly turned away refugees on the Day of Mourning. I could come up with an explanation for that if I had to. But in MY campaign, I’m simply going to ignore it and say it was Karrnath that turned people away… which was an unfortunate necessity due to their limited resources.

Thus different authours, thus not the control he would have liked, thus its not his world anymore. Thus Thrane and the Silver Flame have more corruption in the officially published references. And Keith himself points this out in point a).

http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-31215-origins-authors-and-thrane/

 

[doctorbadwolf]

None of which matters in a setting where canon is up to you. Also, inconsistencies require resolution, which requires choosing a version/side. When one matches the creators intent and one flies directly and incompatibly in the face of it, that is an easy choice.

As I said, corrupt and overzealous is one way yo use Thrane and the CoSF, but isn't the only one, and doesn't line up with the creators intent.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

also, "And Keith himself points this out in point a)."

Not so much. He wrote Thrane and the SF as having corruption. Just, no more than anywhere else, and a better history of altruism than pretty much anyone else.
The fact that official sources conflict on the subject is another matter, mostly of bad editing/setting management. Since sources conflict, and wotc hasn't exactly come out and said, "here's how this plays out, source a is correct and source b was a mistake.", only two options remain.

Either trust the intent of the creator of the setting, who has also been active in it's development over the years but who doesn't control the rights to the setting, or just go with what works for you in your games, because it's ultimately your Eberron anyway.

 

[rebbeman]

As a rabbi in real life (yes, really!), I find the discussion of religion in this game world particularly interesting. Ultimately religion is a complicated thing. Who defines it? The average folk who practice it, the theologians who interpret it, the institutions that represent it? The answer is all and none! The Silver flame, like real world religions is based on a sincere belief in the good that it represents. And for most of the people who follow it it is probably the case, the same way that the average person in the pew believes in what is being said and done at their church/synagogue/mosque and believes that they are following a righteous path by being there. But they don;t always believe or follow EVERYTHING, including not always approving of what the religious institution is doing beyond their church and their pastor. And once you bring bureaucracy and material issues into a religious life, whether that is budgets for the church or synagogue and politics within lay leaders, or applying the religion in the public square, the friction between sincere belief and the effects of power are inevitable. That doesn't mean that religion is bad or corrupt but that it is inevitably effected by personal biases and the flaws of human beings, both on a personal level and on a larger scale. So the Silver Flame may be a very good religion but there is also inevitably corruption because it is so entwined in the workings of a nation. So in essence both the idea that Silver Flame is good and holy AND the idea that it is corrupt can be true at the same time, and it really depends on the decision of the DM (and probably their personal view of religion) which is prioritized in their game.

 

[rebbeman]

Going back to the original question of whether Eberron is or has to be a High Fantasy/High Magic world, I would make a distinction between a world which is High Magic and one in which there is lots of magic. In our real world I can walk into any pharmacy and get a wide variety of medicines that are easily available for the public. But I don;t walk into brain or cardiac surgeons on every street block. So in Eberron there is lots of low level magic easily available but there are not lots of 20th level archmages walking around and interacting with everyone on a regular basis.

 

[innerdude]

Eberron is "wide magic", not "high magic"...
It's a setting where NPCs wouldn't get past lvl 10, except for some very important villains (Lord of Blades)... Or one or another Commoner (like the best cook in the world, who had to have high levels to justify her high point count in cook skill

The Alexandrian had a fairly good essay about this showing in 3.x terms how there are likely very, very few people ANYWHERE over level 5.

A top-flight cook, for example, is probably at most a level 5 commoner with a 14 Int.

Think--- max skill ranks at level one, 1 additional skill rank each level after that, +2 for a 14 INT, + skill focus at lvl 1, + greater skill focus at lvl 4.

4 + 4 + 2 + 2 + 2 = +14.

That means a slightly-above-average level 5 commoner with skill focus in cooking can produce a fantastic, sumptuous meal (DC 24 and below) pretty much any time they like by taking 10.

45% of the time (any roll 11 or higher) they can produce dining fare fit for a king (DC 25), and when all of their skill comes together (rolls of 16+), they can make a feast that will be talked about for literally years afterwards (meeting DC 30 and higher).

It seems weird when you read the essay, because in many games I've had the feeling that at level 6, 7, or 8 my character was BARELY starting to get GOOD. Yet if you take the 3.x basic skill mechanics at face value, a level 8 ANYTHING in a "typical" D&D 3.x world is a veritable master of their craft, a one-percent-er, and would be at the very least nationally renowned in their home country. By level 12, a character's name would be recognized instantly by half the world.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

As a rabbi in real life (yes, really!), I find the discussion of religion in this game world particularly interesting. Ultimately religion is a complicated thing. Who defines it? The average folk who practice it, the theologians who interpret it, the institutions that represent it? The answer is all and none! The Silver flame, like real world religions is based on a sincere belief in the good that it represents. And for most of the people who follow it it is probably the case, the same way that the average person in the pew believes in what is being said and done at their church/synagogue/mosque and believes that they are following a righteous path by being there. But they don;t always believe or follow EVERYTHING, including not always approving of what the religious institution is doing beyond their church and their pastor. And once you bring bureaucracy and material issues into a religious life, whether that is budgets for the church or synagogue and politics within lay leaders, or applying the religion in the public square, the friction between sincere belief and the effects of power are inevitable. That doesn't mean that religion is bad or corrupt but that it is inevitably effected by personal biases and the flaws of human beings, both on a personal level and on a larger scale. So the Silver Flame may be a very good religion but there is also inevitably corruption because it is so entwined in the workings of a nation. So in essence both the idea that Silver Flame is good and holy AND the idea that it is corrupt can be true at the same time, and it really depends on the decision of the DM (and probably their personal view of religion) which is prioritized in their game.

Well said! I think that is exactly the take on faith and religion in Eberron.

 

[devincutler]

Eh. It had "name level", which served the same purpose, but in a different fashion. Instead of contriving odd new rules for high-level characters, 1E had several levels of spells to offer "epic" characters, rather than the contorted feats and other oddities of the ELH. Worth noting is that the ELH flattened hit point advancement in the same way that 1E "name level" did.

So, yeah, depending on how you want to talk "epic", 1E had epic characters. They just happened to be leveled in the teens, rather than twenties. Eberron just goes back to the idea that you don't have to go gonzo to be pretty powerful and that, at a certain point, power of one form begets power (and responsibility) of another form.

Well this seems to be in line with 5th ed. You will note that Rise of Tiamat, which starts PCs at around 8th level, states that NPCs regard the PCs as powerful heroes known up and down the Sword Coast and that the powerful factions come to rely on them as the only ones capable of solving the problems at hand.

In 3e FR 8th level was likely to be your local barber (8th level Commoner?).

Here, as in 1st ed, 8th level seems to be a region-wide hero.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Well this seems to be in line with 5th ed. You will note that Rise of Tiamat, which starts PCs at around 8th level, states that NPCs regard the PCs as powerful heroes known up and down the Sword Coast and that the powerful factions come to rely on them as the only ones capable of solving the problems at hand.

In 3e FR 8th level was likely to be your local barber (8th level Commoner?).

Here, as in 1st ed, 8th level seems to be a region-wide hero.

Not surprising. If 5th's 20-level progression is meant to mirror most of 4e's 30-level progression, it wouldn't be unusual to say that 7-8 levels in the former is equivalent to 10 levels in the latter. (If we want to get really technical, it's more like a scaling curve than a single multiplier, but that's beyond the scope of this). If it were a 7:10 ratio for 5e to 4e, then you'd end up with "21st level" 5e = 30th level 4e, which seems about right. If you're a level or two into Paragon tier in 4e, you're a regional or even multi-continental hero. It's rare to find someone who's never heard of you, even in passing, unless you go to a civilization that has no contact whatsoever with your "native" one and its neighbors/competitors/partners, or places so far out of the way that it may be years or decades before they hear from the outside world.

Just another place where the editions really aren't as different as most people think. The numbers may change slightly in one direction or another, but the thing they represent typically stays the same.