Does Precocious Apprentice really work like this?

[pawsplay]

Looking it over, the requirement that you make a caster level check probably disqualifies the feat from getting you into MT. While MT doesn't say "without unusual restrictions" after the ability to cast 2nd level spells, I think that is a worthy consideration.

Moreover, even though a sorcerer might only know one 2nd level spell, they have the potential to cast others, if they knew them. A Precocious Apprentice does not.

In any case, whether or not the RAW allows the interpretation, it's cheesy and I think a reasonable DM would choose the negative interpretation. A MT is unlikely to be a gamebreaker, but I think it is worth weighing fairness against other characters, particularly Arcane Heirophants, Fochulcan Lyricists, straight up casters, and so forth.

 

[KarinsDad]

In any case, whether or not the RAW allows the interpretation, it's cheesy and I think a reasonable DM would choose the negative interpretation.

So, any DM who chooses the positive interpretation is not reasonable?

There are other factors.

Fun.

Party balance (i.e. a group lacking both arcane and divine access).

There are other ways of determining "reasonableness" than just cheesy.

 

[Abraxas]

Btw, I agree that the designers have stated that it was not intended for this use. I also agree that it is slightly unbalanced to do so. I allowed a player to do this for his Wizard 1 / Psion 3 / Cerebremancer and have regretted it ever since.

I allowed a player to use it also (Warmage 1/ Druid 6/ Arcane Heirophant 3) and am also regretting it. However, I haven't determined if it is because allowing precocious spellcaster to work like this is the problem, the arcane heirophant is the problem or the two together is the problem. I do believe there are certain combinations where it wouldn't be a problem, but warmage/druid isn't one of them.

 

[Amazing Triangle]

Party balance (i.e. a group lacking both arcane and divine access).

This is the reason I am going for this class combo. The party has a Druid, a Bard, a Rogue/Shadowdancer, another Rogue 15/Cleric 2, and a Sorcerer specializing it save or die spells. So my Cleric/Warmage specializing in ranged touch spells and rays and party buffs, fits. As my character fits that strong healer role that the party has needed and the character also doubles as a direct damage dealer.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Looking it over, the requirement that you make a caster level check probably disqualifies the feat from getting you into MT. While MT doesn't say "without unusual restrictions" after the ability to cast 2nd level spells, I think that is a worthy consideration.

Does a sorcerer wearing leather armor qualify? He needs to roll an arcane failure chance to cast.

Does a Precocious Apprentice with the feat that allows Taking 10 on caster level checks (with a high enough modifier that he can never fail to cast the spell) sidestep this worthy consideration?

Moreover, even though a sorcerer might only know one 2nd level spell, they have the potential to cast others, if they knew them. A Precocious Apprentice does not.

A Precocious Apprentice has as much potential to cast spells he doesn't know as a sorcerer does... since either of them would have to take more levels in sorcerer to manage it!

-Hyp.

 

[gabrion]

Well I think there are three ways you can approach this question.

1) Did the authors intend for this feat to allow early entry into PrCs?
2) Does the exact wording of this feat allow early entry into PrCs?
3) Does using this feat to qualify for PrCs early unbalance the game?

The answers to the questions are as follows:

1) The author has said that the feat was not meant to allow early entry into PrCs.

2) A strict reading of the rules does not allow a Wiz 1/Cleric 3 to enter Mystic Theurge.

When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would.

So, as pointed out earlier, as soon as you hit cleric level 3 you can cast 2nd-level spells and so you loose the ability to cast the second level arcane spell you chose. There is no good reading of this that would allow you to cast that spell as a divine spell. "As you normally would" when applied to your current ability to cast 2nd level spells means you can use the extra spell slot to prepare a divine spell.

3) From a balance perspective it isn't too bad to allow this for MTs, but watch out if the party wizard/druid/arcane hierophant wants to use it.

 

[monboesen]

This is the reason I am going for this class combo. The party has a Druid, a Bard, a Rogue/Shadowdancer, another Rogue 15/Cleric 2, and a Sorcerer specializing it save or die spells.

Strictly speaking that party does not need another spellcaster and the Druid and Bard can handle healing.

It needs a rock hard melee specialist to keep opponents from ripping into all those soft juicy targets.


From the power point of view. You cast cleric spells as a character 1 level lower. Hp, saves and BAB are so easily shored up by your cleric spells that those matter less IMO, and the only real power in Turning undead is the ability to use divine feats which you can do just as good as any other cleric (or even better since you can use stuff like Divine metamagic for your arcane spells).

To compensate for those, again IMO, small losses of power you can blast away with the most powerful damaging spells in the game for a good number of rounds. That takes care of area of effect damage, one of the few things clerics aren't great at already (the others being skills and stealth).

Sorry IMO that's blatantly overpowered. Luckily I'm not your DM and not the guy you need to convince

 

[pawsplay]

Does a sorcerer wearing leather armor qualify? He needs to roll an arcane failure chance to cast.

Yes. Wearing leather armor does not cause him to suddenly lack an ability.

Does a Precocious Apprentice with the feat that allows Taking 10 on caster level checks (with a high enough modifier that he can never fail to cast the spell) sidestep this worthy consideration?

I don't think that changes anything.

A Precocious Apprentice has as much potential to cast spells he doesn't know as a sorcerer does... since either of them would have to take more levels in sorcerer to manage it!

-Hyp.

I'll admit the exceptions are far out, but in principle, there is a difference. For example, an epic character with sorcerer levels who learned their first 9th level spell could take Spell Knowledge and then cast more 9th level spells. Could a wish grant a sorcerer another spell? I'm not sure, but if it did, the principle would be important.