D&D 5E Does the "Friends" cantrip need a fix?

[Ahrimon]

I'd fix it by removing the automatically hostile part and replacing it with "responds appropriately". There are numerous situations where you could use the spell and the target really would have helped you anyway. Getting influenced by the freinds spell shouldn't be any different than getting influenced by someone else who can fast talk his way through something.

Edit: darn autocorrect...

 

[steeldragons]

"Them keep owl..."?

 

[ShadowSeeker]

"Alert the guards! That guy casted a spell on me to ask me directions! Kill him!"

It's more like: "Wait a minute! I think that guy tricked me with his spell. I don't like to be tricked. Gonna check this guy again and show him who is in charge here! Guys, I think I know someone who needs a little lesson!"

 

[zago]

I think a lot of the pain points around this cantrip mentioned is this thread are based entirely around subjective interpretations of what is necessary to make it work. I suggest an opposite approach, find out in your group what you think the effective power of a cantrip should be, and use it thus. If your group wants jedi level power, it CAN be used that way, (by the time the guard realizes what happens, the wizard has disappeared in the crowd). This is even better, because as the wizard moves around the town there is always the chance he will run into the same guard.

I play an Arcane trickster and have used this plenty of times to great effect. In the market, I use it to barter, I don't however cast it as I enter a shop, I cast it at the moment before i make the roll, (no one spends one minute going and getting something, I ask the me to get it to me, I ask them the cost, I cast the spell, Make the check, pay and leave and leave, fifty seconds later the store owner has no idea where I am. Sometimes the DM might choose to have a maniac shop owner come after me, but most times the shop owner won;t leave his store front to chase me down. The hostile comes in, if I see him again or try to purchase from him again. I also use it to pick pocket, memorably when I was once almost caught. Social checks have limits, one check wont get you a free item of good value, but maybe at a decent discount. Is a store owner going to kill call guards because he is shorted a couple gold? Or is he just going to become highly inhospitable to what he perceives as a con man.

It's situationally useful, as it should be.

 

[keterys]

In the market, I use it to barter, I don't however cast it as I enter a shop, I cast it at the moment before i make the roll, (no one spends one minute going and getting something, I ask the me to get it to me, I ask them the cost, I cast the spell, Make the check, pay and leave and leave, fifty seconds later the store owner has no idea where I am.

That's _incredibly_ tricky to time that well. After all, who said you weren't making a check at every point prior to that? And, again, why is the shopkeeper not reacting to you casting a spell? Bartering is a time consuming process. If you want Friends to work on a barter, you've got to be in a very race-quick situation. Not generally the case.

In a medieval-ish society, especially one with illusions and enchantments, assuming an item of any real worth (and we don't care about the cantrip in any other situation) then the coins will also be examined.

Which brings up an interesting point. For anything of real value, D&D people have a very real incentive to ensure there's a test for minor illusions and enchantments. And boy is Friends easy to defeat if you know the ability exists at all. Much like biting a gold coin to make sure it's real.

 

[pukunui]

I think its best use is for interrogation; the subject is likely already hostile towards you.

It doesn't work at all if the target is already hostile.

 

[redrick]

First of all, under no circumstances should you actually take out a stop-watch and clock out 60 seconds for this spell. That is not the point of the duration, at least not in my opinion. The "1 minute" duration is really just an indication of an order of magnitude, as opposed to "10 minutes." I don't know anybody who precisely tracks individual minutes at their table, and, I can tell you from experience, in cinematic terms, 60 seconds is a long time. Think of how much happens in a :60 commercial.

This is definitely a spell that requires cooperation with your DM, and I think it's written to be very limited so that the DM a cantrip isn't greatly altering the narrative of any moment. I'll admit that it hasn't come up at my table, but here are my thoughts on its application:

a) "hostile" is very much a relative term. It's more "wait a minute!", with the degree of hostility depending on the scale of the con. Did you use Friends to cut ahead of somebody in line? Or did you use it to talk your way through a high security checkpoint? The target will react in accordance with what it is that they conceded while under the influence of the spell, which might be nothing more than, "that's the last time I'm nice to that guy if I ever see him again." Or it might involve being chased down a city street, dodging in and out of fruit stalls.
b) the spell could easily be cast while somebody isn't looking at you. This is sort of a "quick, let me throw this spell on, and then walk up to this guy." In a crowd. Behind a shelf in a store. With your back turned, as long as other people are present, etc.
c) the duration is meant to be long enough to make a quick interaction and then get away. If that takes you 1 minute and 46 seconds, then you're fine. jeez. if it takes you 10 minutes to have your interaction and get your results, you are not fine. Similarly, it's meant to be long enough for you to cast the spell discretely and then approach a person. Not cast the spell and then stand around waiting for somebody, or cast the spell and then spend several minutes finding the person you intend to affect.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

That's _incredibly_ tricky to time that well. After all, who said you weren't making a check at every point prior to that? And, again, why is the shopkeeper not reacting to you casting a spell? Bartering is a time consuming process. If you want Friends to work on a barter, you've got to be in a very race-quick situation. Not generally the case.

Because the spell is not obvious. It's the equivalent of putting on makeup or powdering one's nose - which is a common enough occurrence.

 

[zago]

[MENTION=43019]keterys[/MENTION]
I think your missing my point. As a DM and a Player, I can recognize the reason why someone might take Friends. Why would I then (as the guy who makes the world) set the conditions for a successful barter, swindle, or manipulation to ALWAYS be beyond the capability of the cantrip? Any DM can do this with nearly any ability. Oxygen isn't in the air in this world, so I'm sorry fireball doesn't work. I think it's fair that DM's might have different interpretations on how it works, but what dm is like, "Nope, if you try to get rations for 2/3 price, it will require 4 charisma checks and at least a full minute of bartering. Sorry friends sucks."

 

[Leatherhead]

Friends is OK when your DM ignores the downsides, but even then it isn't good. Their are far easier or more versatile ways to achieve the intended result, even at level one.

The unintended result of being able to sow mistrust should have been it's own cantrip. Call it Enemies, make it so that two people you target start really disliking each-other. Great for sneaking past guards or causing a riot.