D&D 5E Does the "Friends" cantrip need a fix?

[FormerlyHemlock]

In a medieval-ish society, especially one with illusions and enchantments, assuming an item of any real worth (and we don't care about the cantrip in any other situation) then the coins will also be examined.

Which brings up an interesting point. For anything of real value, D&D people have a very real incentive to ensure there's a test for minor illusions and enchantments. And boy is Friends easy to defeat if you know the ability exists at all. Much like biting a gold coin to make sure it's real.

This is one of those setting-dependent issues: high magic/low magic. I happen to enjoy games where PCs are unusual, magic is rare, and the gameworld equilibrium revolves mostly around the mundane. The main reason for this is that it makes it easier to justify giving adventures to the PCs (in a high-magic setting, bounded accuracy + semi-common NPC spellcasters = all the dungeons have been cleared and looted already) but as a side-effect, it makes NPCs less savvy about magic tricks the PCs/magic monsters could play, and that is good too IMO[1].

Real-life people have a real incentive to check for counterfeit bills, and yet they often don't, because counterfeiters are just so rare.

[1] What's more fun: players having to diagnose dastardly plots like a Rakshasa hiding in the palace, or a king who is so illusion-savvy that he automatically tests everyone for Disguise Self and therefore can't be fooled by a Rakshasa in the first place?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

It doesn't work at all if the target is already hostile.

Wow. I hadn't noticed that--that means you can't use it to Intimidate enemies into surrendering, either. Score one more for Enhance Ability (Charisma).

 

[Coredump]

Wow. I hadn't noticed that--that means you can't use it to Intimidate enemies into surrendering, either. Score one more for Enhance Ability (Charisma).

Yep, in general 2nd level spells will always be more powerful than an at-will cantrip...

But not all captured enemies will be hostile, it depends on who they are, how they got captured, and how they are being treated.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Yep, in general 2nd level spells will always be more powerful than an at-will cantrip...

...in the general case, cantrips are more tightly-restricted than 2nd level spells. It's common to be able to reconfigure your spells (preparing Enhance Ability as needed), but you can't reconfigure your cantrips AFAIK, not even as you level. If you take Friends at 1st level because you won't know Enhance Ability (Charisma) until 3rd level, guess what? You're stuck with Friends forever.

Knowing what I know now, I would only ever learn Friends if I were playing an Enchanter.

 

[keterys]

Real-life people have a real incentive to check for counterfeit bills, and yet they often don't, because counterfeiters are just so rare.

People check hundred dollar bills fairly often. And for any amount of money that would using Friends on for Bartering, it'd be enough gold for a merchant to both check for illusions and take at least one minute.

What's more fun: players having to diagnose dastardly plots like a Rakshasa hiding in the palace, or a king who is so illusion-savvy that he automatically tests everyone for Disguise Self and therefore can't be fooled by a Rakshasa in the first place?

It's more believable for basic sensible precautions to take place. Rakshasa are devious enough to then get around them.

Cause, yeah, the Rakshasa dominating the guard who does the illusion checks is also cool

 

[keterys]

[MENTION=43019]keterys[/MENTION]
I think your missing my point. As a DM and a Player, I can recognize the reason why someone might take Friends. Why would I then (as the guy who makes the world) set the conditions for a successful barter, swindle, or manipulation to ALWAYS be beyond the capability of the cantrip? Any DM can do this with nearly any ability. Oxygen isn't in the air in this world, so I'm sorry fireball doesn't work. I think it's fair that DM's might have different interpretations on how it works, but what dm is like, "Nope, if you try to get rations for 2/3 price, it will require 4 charisma checks and at least a full minute of bartering. Sorry friends sucks."

Sounds like you just answered the question that Friends _does_ suck, and that games should change it enough to make it not suck.

I agree!

 

[Saeviomagy]

The fix that the spell needs is to remove the 1 minute duration and rename it enemies.

Seriously - the set up required for it to do what it's name indicates is as follows:
1. The target is already someone that you can engage in social niceties.
2. For some reason you cannot talk to the target at the same time as a friend, offer it a sufficient bribe, dig up dirt on it's family etc etc, because any one of those would net you advantage, no spell needed.
3. Whatever you want the guy to be friendly for takes less than 1 minute to achieve (which rules out getting any information beyond the most trivial, and rules out getting anyone to do a favour for you)
4. Whoever the guy is, it doesn't matter if he hates your guts after doing whatever trivial thing it is that you want him to do.

Compare it with simply offering some thing that the target might want (which many DMs would interpret as giving advantage on such an interaction), talking to him with a friend beside you or just killing the guy. I'm pretty sure that all of those kick the crap out of casting friends.

The other fix would simply be replacing "the target becomes hostile towards you" with... well... nothing at all. Just remove it. The spell gives advantage against a limited set of targets for a limited set of skills that can't make the target behave against it's nature anyway. It MIGHT merit a rider of "the target realises it's mind was messed with" if it was giving a +5 bonus.

 

[Nellisir]

That's _incredibly_ tricky to time that well. After all, who said you weren't making a check at every point prior to that? And, again, why is the shopkeeper not reacting to you casting a spell? Bartering is a time consuming process. If you want Friends to work on a barter, you've got to be in a very race-quick situation. Not generally the case.

In a medieval-ish society, especially one with illusions and enchantments, assuming an item of any real worth (and we don't care about the cantrip in any other situation) then the coins will also be examined.

Which brings up an interesting point. For anything of real value, D&D people have a very real incentive to ensure there's a test for minor illusions and enchantments. And boy is Friends easy to defeat if you know the ability exists at all. Much like biting a gold coin to make sure it's real.

As noted above, the availability of a "test for minor illusions and enchantments" is world- and campaign-specific. As is knowledge of such things.

Secondly, bartering actually doesn't take all that long. Both parties know their roles in the affair. It doesn't have to be some long, drawn-out melodrama. Getting you to pay a 250% markup, but losing two other sales in the process, is bad business. Better to get three at 200%. A minute is probably reasonable for most of my bartering experience, and that's working through a third-party (my wife) or a calculator (when she wasn't with me. You say your price, the vendor enters what they want, you say no and make a new offer, they type in their counteroffer). They're really fast about the whole thing. My wife on her own is even faster (and meaner), because she grew up doing it, but after living in the US for twenty+ years she kinda hates it.

I don't have a problem with the friends cantrip as written.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

It's more believable for basic sensible precautions to take place. Rakshasa are devious enough to then get around them.

Cause, yeah, the Rakshasa dominating the guard who does the illusion checks is also cool

I don't think there's any good way for a Rakshasa to get around sensible precautions. Dominate Person doesn't cut it, it only lasts a minute, and can fail, and only affects one person. Doesn't matter how devious you are, you're not going to become a King's trusted advisor on the basis of Disguise Self unless the king is unaware of the capabilities of illusion magic. (Shake hands with people, have working dinners over two hours in length and take note of who leaves the room repeatedly, etc.)

I'd rather have a world where magic is rare enough that you can get away with intrigue magic because no one expects it. And yes, that includes PCs getting away with it in return. How much fun would Mission Impossible be if the rubber masks never worked on anyone?

 

[ad_hoc]

As noted above, the availability of a "test for minor illusions and enchantments" is world- and campaign-specific. As is knowledge of such things.

Secondly, bartering actually doesn't take all that long. Both parties know their roles in the affair. It doesn't have to be some long, drawn-out melodrama. Getting you to pay a 250% markup, but losing two other sales in the process, is bad business. Better to get three at 200%. A minute is probably reasonable for most of my bartering experience, and that's working through a third-party (my wife) or a calculator (when she wasn't with me. You say your price, the vendor enters what they want, you say no and make a new offer, they type in their counteroffer). They're really fast about the whole thing. My wife on her own is even faster (and meaner), because she grew up doing it, but after living in the US for twenty+ years she kinda hates it.

I don't have a problem with the friends cantrip as written.

Should we rename friends to barter?

Using it to barter just sounds boring to me.

I think it should last the length of a short social encounter and then after the target realizes that they were fast talked, not necessarily that they were charmed. They weren't charmed just like Enhance Ability doesn't charm them. It just makes you perform better.