Does this work

[thegrizz]

Okay so I basically posted this same post over at gleemax but I am looking to get as wide of a response as possible so I figured I would post this question over here as well.

My friend is playing a warlock named Voodoo, his basic concept is that Voodoo worshiips the Raven queen and has a scared picture of a raven on his chest. One of the warlock abilities Hellish rebuke gives an additional 1D6+con damage if the warlock is injured before the end of his turn. To get this bonus die Voodoo cuts himself.

So the question is does this actually work like this? I have not found a rule that says it does not, but I have been known to miss things on occasion.

The second part of Voodoo is that Dark Ones blessing gives you temp hp of 1 per level when a creature under a curse dies. So Voodoo carries around a cage of rats that he has cursed and when He wishes to gain temp hp (to of course offset the damage from cutting himself) he kills a rat.

Does this work? Again I hae not found a rule that clearly says no, but again I could be overlooking something.

I would be grateful for any answer you guys come up with.

 

[generalhenry]

I have not found a rule that says it does not

It's in the DMG. There's a no bags of rats rule. Only real threats count.

 

[thegrizz]

Damn you mean the DMG actually had something worth having in it. I guess I will have to read it again.

 

[theNater]

My friend is playing a warlock named Voodoo, his basic concept is that Voodoo worshiips the Raven queen and has a scared picture of a raven on his chest. One of the warlock abilities Hellish rebuke gives an additional 1D6+con damage if the warlock is injured before the end of his turn. To get this bonus die Voodoo cuts himself.

So the question is does this actually work like this? I have not found a rule that says it does not, but I have been known to miss things on occasion.

This seems perfectly reasonable. Hellish Rebuke doesn't care how you get damaged, just so long as you get damaged. I assume it is designed to work well with things like Warlock's Bargain(warlock 17).

Two things to consider: What kind of action is he using to damage himself, and how much damage is he doing?

The only self-cutting rules of which I am aware(aside from making an attack on yourself, which I assume is permitted), are those given with the blood mage paragon path. The blood mage can use a free action to deal 1d10 or 2d10 damage to himself. If we limit Voodoo to these sorts of options, cutting himself is usually going to be inefficient.

The second part of Voodoo is that Dark Ones blessing gives you temp hp of 1 per level when a creature under a curse dies. So Voodoo carries around a cage of rats that he has cursed and when He wishes to gain temp hp (to of course offset the damage from cutting himself) he kills a rat.

Does this work? Again I hae not found a rule that clearly says no, but again I could be overlooking something.

As generalhenry mentioned, there is a "viable threat" clause on powers that operate off of deafeating foes. The rats are no good.

Also, according to page 293 of the PHB, temporary hit points are "a layer of insulation that attacks have to get through before they start doing damage". I take this to mean that an effect that only removes temporary hit points does not trigger Hellish Rebuke.

 

[Byronic]

I'm going to have to agree that the bag of rats does not count. It does not constitute a legitimate threat.

The warlocks idea to injure himself to activate his Hellish Rebuke however I would allow. I know he's probably just doing it to squeeze some more damage out of his ability but I'd let him do it anyway (except if it would ruin the atmosphere).

The reason is simple. It's thematic, it fits with the concept. Sometimes magic demands sacrifice. However, I would say that it had to be at least x amount of damage. Perhaps 2-3 at beginning levels and perhaps going up 1 every 3-5 levels or so. The Raven Queen demands sacrifice after all and does not reward cowards. Also you might want it to be a Minor Action.

Although if you want to do this strictly by the books I would like to add (page 40) that the legitimate target paragraph only effects that rely on hitting the target or killing it. While Hellish rebuke might work even if you kill yourself it really only requires damage. Which is not included on the paragraph.

 

[thegrizz]

Okay so the bag of rats is most definitely out. I also agree that thematically the idea really kicks butt which is why I am actually thinking about allowing it.

However the idea of him having to take real damage even adds to it. So what do you all think about it being a minor action causing 1d4 points of damage? Does that maintain balance? Or should I make the action a bit more heavy such as a move or move equivalent?

 

[cdrcjsn]

Dude, why don't you just walk past the opponent under the paladin's (of the raven queen of course) divine challenge?

That way:
* you trigger the OA and activate the paladin's divine challenge damage
* you get hit and trigger your bonus damage
* you activate your armor's special ability upon getting hit and do more damage...you do have one of those right? (sunleaf, deathcut, fireburst)
* you gain shadow walk

As a warlock, you'll probably have temp hps to spare anyways.

 

[Byronic]

Minor Action D4 damage works lovely.

 

[On Puget Sound]

Dude, why don't you just walk past the opponent under the paladin's (of the raven queen of course) divine challenge?

That way:
* you trigger the OA and activate the paladin's divine challenge damage
* you get hit and trigger your bonus damage
* you activate your armor's special ability upon getting hit and do more damage...you do have one of those right? (sunleaf, deathcut, fireburst)
* you gain shadow walk

As a warlock, you'll probably have temp hps to spare anyways.

This will work with nonsentient foes. Creatures in 4E know what effects they are under and what the associated conditions and penalties are. So an intelligent creature may choose not to OA you in this circumstance, especially if it's seen it happen earlier in the fight.

Regarding self-damage, there are a LOT of ways for a party to arrange very minor damage to a member, so it's not game-breaking to allow the warlock to cut himself for 1 HP. I'd make it a move action, though, not a minor, since it requires some care and you are still in the middle of a fight. Probably not necessary to have a dagger in hand, as kicking a rock with all your strength, or even biting your arm, would do 1 HP if you needed it to.

 

[thegrizz]

Dude, why don't you just walk past the opponent under the paladin's (of the raven queen of course) divine challenge?

That way:
* you trigger the OA and activate the paladin's divine challenge damage
* you get hit and trigger your bonus damage
* you activate your armor's special ability upon getting hit and do more damage...you do have one of those right? (sunleaf, deathcut, fireburst)
* you gain shadow walk

As a warlock, you'll probably have temp hps to spare anyways.

Admitted that would have the same effect. However one of the things that I really dig about the self cutting Warlock is that its a hell of a theme. Imagine the character as concived by the player:

Voodoo is a massive human (six foot seven) who wears a pair of black pants and nothing else. His skin is almost alabaster white as though the sun has never blessed his skin with its touch. The only color on his skin is the raven that has been scared upon his chest and these scars look as angry red welts for he continuously cuts himself along their lines as both a source of power and a sacrifice to his sacred goddess the Raven Queen.

Voodoo remains silent in most situations unless he feels that his speaking can bring some gain to the situation. However in combat he stands boldly and shouts praises to the Raven Queen as he uses his own flesh as sacrifice to her.

It's a nice concept, or at least I think it is.