D&D 5E Does "Unarmoured Defense" work with Druids who are shapechanged?

I don't have a problem with it conceptually, but I think it's too much benefit for too little investment-- any Druid's going to have a WIS in the 16-20 range and most Druids are going to have the minimum 13 DEX to qualify and not much more. They'll be one level behind on spells and ASIs as a melee primary class with full spellcasting as a backup.

It's an old gripe with 5e's multiclassing system. Being multiclassed should always represent a larger mechanical and narrative investment in the character concept, and should represent a larger portion of the character's abilities than a brief dip allows.

If the character is clearly a Druid and a Monk and not just a Druid with a Monk level or two, then I think it should work as written.
 

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Page 14 of the PH does offer some guidance:
Players Handbook said:
Some spells and class features give you a different way to calculate your AC. If you have multiple features that give you different ways to calculate your AC, you choose which one to use.
The direction to “pick one to use” strongly suggests mutual exclusivity rather than any ability to add them together. But the point at which you‘d have to pick… Can you pick the barbarian or monk method while wildshaped? Or does being wildshaped imply you have chosen the wildshape method?
 

Page 14 of the PH does offer some guidance:

The direction to “pick one to use” strongly suggests mutual exclusivity rather than any ability to add them together. But the point at which you‘d have to pick… Can you pick the barbarian or monk method while wildshaped? Or does being wildshaped imply you have chosen the wildshape method?
The only case where it's even implied you don't get to pick is a multiclass barbarian/monk: you get whichever feature you got first, for all time.

(Although so long as you're not trying to stack them I don't mind if you pick.)
 

I'm assuming you always get to pick which method you want to use to calculate AC of the ones available to you, since a few races (Lizardfolk, Tortle) have alternative methods to calculate their AC and I can't imagine them being unable to use others they gain access to.
 

I'd allow it, but with the following tweaks:

1. You can choose to take your Unarmored Defense or the AC from your animal form. UD does not stack on top of the animal form's AC.
2. The AC benefit is based off of your natural Dexterity, not the animal form's Dex; UD doesn't dynamically change based on the form you take.
3. If you want to make this better later on, you'll need one or more magic items, feats, or spells, or some kind of special training (read: actually doing some kind of difficult RP-centric challenge) to meld your abilities together.

I like the idea of a Druid/Monk multiclass learning to blend unarmed combat and shapeshifting. I think that that's a great opportunity for developing a unique character. But it's going to require investment to make it work.
 

I'd allow it, but with the following tweaks:

1. You can choose to take your Unarmored Defense or the AC from your animal form. UD does not stack on top of the animal form's AC.
2. The AC benefit is based off of your natural Dexterity, not the animal form's Dex; UD doesn't dynamically change based on the form you take.
3. If you want to make this better later on, you'll need one or more magic items, feats, or spells, or some kind of special training (read: actually doing some kind of difficult RP-centric challenge) to meld your abilities together.

I like the idea of a Druid/Monk multiclass learning to blend unarmed combat and shapeshifting. I think that that's a great opportunity for developing a unique character. But it's going to require investment to make it work.
Why isn't taking a level of Monk investment enough, out of curiosity? I mean, you're giving up a lot in this case; all of your Druid abilities are delayed by a level so you can get better than Barkskin AC. It's not like access to Martial Arts is going to be very useful.
 

Why isn't taking a level of Monk investment enough, out of curiosity? I mean, you're giving up a lot in this case; all of your Druid abilities are delayed by a level so you can get better than Barkskin AC. It's not like access to Martial Arts is going to be very useful.
Because I would want to see these two traditions actually married together. A level of Monk means you have been initiated. I would prefer to see someone delve deeper before they produce a unified, integrated expression of these things. This, incidentally, is what I would do in essentially any game. E.g. if a player took a Monk MC feat in 4e,* I would expect them to put further investment into it to make it work--perhaps a Monk PP, or some extra Monk feats, or going to multiple monasteries to study under various masters (=some rolls each time to determine progress, you will make progress but it might be slow or might be super fast), etc. Many routes to the same end; make the journey short enough so that the player can complete it well before the campaign ends, but long enough that it feels like a true achievement, something earned, not merely picked up on a lark.

Keep in mind, I used "or" and very specifically allowed for a pure-roleplay solution, one that doesn't require spending resources (levels, feats, items, etc.), and instead represents the character's journey as they learn to blend these disciplines together. I support this sort of thing wholeheartedly! I just personally prefer to see the player demonstrate the link through play.

Plus...isn't the player already getting an interaction that is probably not intended? IIRC, people have already said that Unarmored Defense simply doesn't work at all while wildshaped. It would seem to me that allowing it to work in some way, and providing multiple routes for building toward something even better, is a perfectly reasonable thing. What do you feel is lacking here?

*As opposed to starting the game as a hybrid Druid|Monk, which is very much designed to be a true blend of the two sides....and has to spend a feat to get closer to "full" from one of its two halves!
 

Because I would want to see these two traditions actually married together. A level of Monk means you have been initiated. I would prefer to see someone delve deeper before they produce a unified, integrated expression of these things. This, incidentally, is what I would do in essentially any game. E.g. if a player took a Monk MC feat in 4e,* I would expect them to put further investment into it to make it work--perhaps a Monk PP, or some extra Monk feats, or going to multiple monasteries to study under various masters (=some rolls each time to determine progress, you will make progress but it might be slow or might be super fast), etc. Many routes to the same end; make the journey short enough so that the player can complete it well before the campaign ends, but long enough that it feels like a true achievement, something earned, not merely picked up on a lark.

Keep in mind, I used "or" and very specifically allowed for a pure-roleplay solution, one that doesn't require spending resources (levels, feats, items, etc.), and instead represents the character's journey as they learn to blend these disciplines together. I support this sort of thing wholeheartedly! I just personally prefer to see the player demonstrate the link through play.

Plus...isn't the player already getting an interaction that is probably not intended? IIRC, people have already said that Unarmored Defense simply doesn't work at all while wildshaped. It would seem to me that allowing it to work in some way, and providing multiple routes for building toward something even better, is a perfectly reasonable thing. What do you feel is lacking here?

*As opposed to starting the game as a hybrid Druid|Monk, which is very much designed to be a true blend of the two sides....and has to spend a feat to get closer to "full" from one of its two halves!
Well I'm not sure that there's a good reason why Unarmored Defense cannot be allowed. It's a class ability, Druids can still use those while Wild Shaped. As for the "must be able to physically perform" clause, I don't see how this really applies.

Can an animal move like a monk? Given that there are real world martial arts styles developed from emulating how animals move- I'm going to say probably?

Can an animal be as tough as a Barbarian? Given that the most popular Barbarian subclass literally gains powers from animal spirits, I'm going to say probably?

Now in your campaign, it appears you want the narrative to at least match the mechanics, if not trump them outright (if I misunderstood you, I apologize in advance). There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Ideally, every choice a player makes is one that is grounded in the narrative.

However, sometimes choices that "make sense" actually hamper or hinder characters, and sometimes the best choice you can make is one that comes out of left field. While the GM can step in to make the former function, that doesn't necessarily mean that the GM should step in to police the latter- the player feels that their character is missing something, and I don't see a good reason to say to them "sorry, you can't do this because it doesn't make sense to me".

As long as it makes sense to them, that should be enough, at least that's how I think.

In discussions like these, I see a lot of people throwing around concepts like "unbalanced". In this case, the pushback seems to be that Druids are intended to have poor AC to make up for the durability of their beast forms, and somehow the game would be unbalanced if a player attempts to boost their AC.

That's like saying a Barbarian shouldn't pick up a Shield because the durability boost of Rage is predicated upon poor Barbarian AC. But they are allowed to make that choice, just as they are allowed to boost Dexterity or be judicious in the use of Reckless Attack.

You mention wanting the player to be a hybrid of Monk and Druid; unfortunately the rules don't really support that sort of thing well. There's not enough synergy between the two paths; a Druid 10 is simply a better character than a Monk 5/Druid 5 (and quite probably a Monk 10 is better as well).

Ideally, we'd have a subclass along the lines of 3.5's Fist of the Forest or the UA Druidic Avenger to blur the lines between the class archetypes- but barring 3PP, I don't see WotC doing this, so hybrid concepts are only doable with multiclassing, and each level take in one class or the other has tradeoffs that can hamper one's character concept, as I pointed out.

A Druid does not get very much use out of Martial Arts; their Wild Shape attacks are likely superior, and natural weapons are neither Monk weapons nor Unarmed Strikes, so the bonus action attack would simply lie fallow. While the other uses of Ki can come in handy, and Extra Attack is functional for Wild Shape, and Stunning Fist of course requires not using your natural weapons. And all these Monk levels mean that the Druid is not getting better Wild Shape forms to work with in the meantime.

Further, there is the loss of spells, which will be greatly felt when our Druid/Monk no longer has Wild Shape to work with, as he's now a poor Monk with the effective spell power of a Ranger! So imposing such a path on a character who just wanted better AC does not feel like a fair trade.

But that's just my opinion.
 

1. You can choose to take your Unarmored Defense or the AC from your animal form. UD does not stack on top of the animal form's AC.
For most monsters, you can "reverse engineer" the creature's AC and subtract any bonus from Dexterity to derive a bonus from other factors such as toughness, scales, magic, etc. IMO these additional factors should count.
2. The AC benefit is based off of your natural Dexterity, not the animal form's Dex; UD doesn't dynamically change based on the form you take.
In some cases, the new form's Dexterity will be lower than the original PC's, and I think this should be accounted for as well. If the character wildshapes into a giant snail with a Dexterity of 3 (for an extreme example), they will not be able to dodge blows as effectively.
 

In some cases, the new form's Dexterity will be lower than the original PC's, and I think this should be accounted for as well. If the character wildshapes into a giant snail with a Dexterity of 3 (for an extreme example), they will not be able to dodge blows as effectively.

But what if it's a very wise snail?

(That said, I am reminded that it's not the ability to move vast distances, but to make minute adjustments. For the prototype, think of any classic Sammo Hung.)
 

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