Does your campaign have magic shops?

[Arnwyn]

There are no "magic shops" in my campaign.

Or do all the people who say no to magic shops run sparse magic worlds?

Yes, I suppose it's kind of "sparse". Sort of. At lower levels, the PCs average the DMG guidelines, I guess, but at higher levels they are a little bit below.

(And do you allow the PCs to craft items? I assume not?)

And you would assume wrongly.

 

[Henry]

Let me put it this way: One of my players RUNS a magic shop in my campaign world.

He's specifically an artificer in the Eberron Campaign Setting, and he loves it. In fact, he refuses to play anything BUT Eberron, and finds excuses to make not to be there when we play something else, he loves that character class that much. I find it a wonderful change of pace, because I commission magic items from HIM, instead of vice versa. It's a wonderful outlet for story hooks, since he might have to quest for a rare component if he wants to fulfill a contract, and I haggle with HIM on the price, instead of him haggling with me. It may yet give him a new appreciation for merchants in my campaign world.

But we're not talking about jets, cars or titles. We're talking about magical items, which are meant to be wonderous and rare, but they arn't because they are being sold dime a dozen in shops across your game world.

I have to disagree with this statement. A "dime a dozen?" If any magic items are for sale at all, they are a dime a dozen? Is this what you are saying? Even in the DMG guidelines, even most towns except for hamlets and thorps have scrolls and potions for sale, and all metropolises have a pretty fair stock. Something can still be sold widely and NOT be a dime a dozen. Suits of armor from Medieval Europe is a good example of this; full plate armor suits were available in all large cities, and even in smaller areas, if the local lord had a good armorer available with fealty to him. However, they were the magic items of their day, with any other metal armor being uncommon at best. Even still, europe had thousands of knights in mail and armor. kind of how any given magic society might have thousands of magic items total circulating at any given time. Magic items to me are less like works of art were, and more like good trained warhorses and suits of plate.

 

[knifespeaks]

So the 'pro magic shoppe' folk here put forward their reasoning for allowing such shoppes in their campaign world. Mostly, these explanations relate to the number of practitioners of magic with item craetion feats and so on.

But who is buying the potions and scrolls from the 5th level wizard in the small town or village? How many adventurers pass through these places looking for potions of healing on their way to dungeons? If you have this many sellers, then you must have a large market - and that's where it all falls down.

It is simply ridiculous to assume that there is such a large market for even the most basic magic items (potions and scrolls) that it can support a 'magic shoppe' in every town/village/thorpe/hamlet/city. Common folk (ie, serfs/peasants) must make up AT LEAST 90% of the population. And you guys are telling me that this 10% support a purveyor of potions and scrolls (not to mention all the other stuff) in every settlement? How many dungeons remain undiscovered in your worlds? How many great evils rise up to be conquered? How many adventurers can you support in your world?

Sorry, it's ridiculous in the extreme.

 

[atom crash]

But we're not talking about jets, cars or titles. We're talking about magical items, which are meant to be wonderous and rare, but they arn't because they are being sold dime a dozen in shops across your game world.

I looked all through the SRD to find where it says magical items "are meant to be wonderous and rare" but couldn't find it. All I see is several long, long lists of items of all sorts, complete with their gp value, requirements to craft and descriptions in game mechanics. That doesn't make them seem wonderous and rare at all. If they are supposed to be priceless, then why put a price on them?

But seriously, allowing PCs to buy or sell magical items doesn't cheapen them. They still cost -- on average -- more money than most commoners will see in a lifetime. What cheapens magical items is when a DM tosses them around with little or no regard to placement or to how much a character already owns. That's why the wealth by level table is in there.

And to limit the availability of magic items forces a DM to make some serious alterations to his campaign in the interest of game balance. Without hefty magic weapons and items, how is a party going to beat a CR 15 demon or devil? The rules assume that by the time a character reaches a certain level, he or she will have access to a certain amount of magic items. Every adventurer. Every one. How does this play into the "wonderous and rare" model when, in order to adequately face challenges appropriate to level, a character MUST own a certain amount of magic items?

I'm not trying to single anyone out with this response, but I have been thinking of this for a while and had to let loose.

I played in a campaign once where the DM wanted us to roleplay attemtping to sell magic items, and it was the most miserable experience for all of us. I guess he wanted us to get the idea that magic items were "rare and valuable" in his campaign, but then why did we have so many low-powered items that no one wanted or found useful? He forced the players into a position where we needed to sell items then made it impossible for us to do so. Getting hassled by grouchy shop owners is not why I play this game; I get enough of that already.

 

[GMSkarka]

All I see is several long, long lists of items of all sorts, complete with their gp value, requirements to craft and descriptions in game mechanics. That doesn't make them seem wonderous and rare at all. If they are supposed to be priceless, then why put a price on them?

Well....here's why:

That's why the wealth by level table is in there.

You've just answered your own question.

That's why the "price" is listed. From a design standpoint, it's not a "price", but a value, so that it can be used in combination with the wealth-by-level table for game balance purposes.



Unfortunately, it seems like many campaigns are run in such a way that if they were The Lord of the Rings, Aragorn would have sold Anduril and the Ring of Barahir so that he could buy a weapon with a higher bonus to hit.

 

[shilsen]

Unfortunately, it seems like many campaigns are run in such a way that if they were The Lord of the Rings, Aragorn would have sold Anduril and the Ring of Barahir so that he could buy a weapon with a higher bonus to hit.

Why unfortunately? If the people playing in those campaigns enjoy it, why does that count as unfortunate for you? It may not fit with my approach to gaming, but as long as they're enjoying it, all I can say is - game on!

 

[VirgilCaine]

I don't have shops, really, I have Wizards Guildhouses.

They stock magic items, alchemical items, and supplies for spells, research, etc.
They don't have too many items--those have been bought, and magic item seekers are hooked up with sellers or creators--but creation or straight spell services mostly require non-cash transactions. Property, jewels or jewelry, or services are used to pay for magic items, not gold.
(Not really for practical issues, its a principle thing.)

 

[GMSkarka]

Why unfortunately? If the people playing in those campaigns enjoy it, why does that count as unfortunate for you?

Two reasons:

One, it increases the likelihood that I will encounter a player wanting to join my game who is used to that style, or that I, as a player, will end up in a campaign being played in that style, which in either case ends up being disappointing for somebody.

The second, and more direct reason, affects me specifically as a designer and publisher--it means that it is more likely that I will have to produce product for a style of play that I'm not particularly interested in, simply because of the number of campaigns run in that style. I mean, I know--that's business...sometimes you have to just give the people what they want--but I tend to prefer working on stuff that I actually enjoy (given the low financial rewards, I may as well be getting that, at least ).

 

[atom crash]

Unfortunately, it seems like many campaigns are run in such a way that if they were The Lord of the Rings, Aragorn would have sold Anduril and the Ring of Barahir so that he could buy a weapon with a higher bonus to hit.

That sword was broken anyway. But it was an artifact, not a magic item.

That's why the "price" is listed. From a design standpoint, it's not a "price", but a value, so that it can be used in combination with the wealth-by-level table for game balance purposes.

The SRD specifically lists "market price" of magic items, not "estimated value." If it was supposed to be a value for game balance purposes, why not list an item's worth in "value units" with a corresponding chart that shows how many "value units" a character should have at each level? For example, a 5th level character should have 20 "units" of magic items. A +2 sword is 2 units, or 4 units, or whatever.

But the designers chose not to write the rules this way. They assigned a "market price" to each item. "Market price" implies there is a "market" for these items. Note that artifacts have no price associated with them. They are designed to be priceless. Perhaps people are confusing magic items and artifacts?

"This item? I can't sell it to you. It is priceless. See? It is worth 10,000 gp. Priceless."

 

[shilsen]

Two reasons:

One, it increases the likelihood that I will encounter a player wanting to join my game who is used to that style, or that I, as a player, will end up in a campaign being played in that style, which in either case ends up being disappointing for somebody.

True, which makes it equally unfortunate that you like the style you do, since that's just as much a reason for the disappointment as the other person's style.

The second, and more direct reason, affects me specifically as a designer and publisher--it means that it is more likely that I will have to produce product for a style of play that I'm not particularly interested in, simply because of the number of campaigns run in that style. I mean, I know--that's business...sometimes you have to just give the people what they want--but I tend to prefer working on stuff that I actually enjoy (given the low financial rewards, I may as well be getting that, at least ).

You want to be able to work on something you enjoy? You greedy so-and-so (says the underpaid and overworked teacher who turns cartwheels in joy at the prospect of what he gets to do).