D&D 5E Doing More with Exhaustion

[Sunseeker]

I liked the way 4th did "concentration" continuing the effects of a spell burned up a specific type of action. If I were to alter the way concentration works in 5E (which I don't particularly like but see no reasonable alternative at this time) that would most likely be my route. The first concentration beyond the first burns your bonus action, concentrating on more than one thing is hard and limits your actions, but not severely. Concentrating on 3 things is so hindering you are unable to take any action, it's just too much to think about. Concentrating on 4 things makes you immobile, you simply are too focused on so many different things you can't even take a step.

I think it keeps the ideal balance of 5th where concentration comes at a cost, and of course, you'd still be subject to making a concentration check for EVERYTHING you're concentrating on if you take damage.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Thanks everyone for the input. I think I have the rule worked out.

You can concentrate on more than one "concentration" spell at a time. At the end of a turn in which you are concentrating on more than one spell, make a Concentration check equal to 10 + the highest level of the spell (spell slot used, not level of spell). Success means you can maintain concentration with no issues. Failure gives one level of Exhaustion. You can maintain a number of concentration spells in this way equal to your casting attribute bonus.

I quite like this idea, using the already existing concentration rule, plus exhaustion as the penalty if they fail. This has got me thinking about feats too, and allowing cool things that require a "death save" or else gain a level of exhaustion.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

This then sent me down a bit of a wormhole.
Why are there so few rules dealing with Exhaustion?
Does anyone else have any similar rules that add Exhaustion effects?
Are there more things that can be done with Exhaustion?

A couple years ago, I started brainstorming about using 3.5Ed's fatigue mechanic (Fatigued => Exhausted => Staggered => Unconscious) as an alternative way to model Energy Drain effects of undead and certain necromantic effects. Just as scary & conceptually appropriate as level draining, but with much less bookkeeping for the players.

You could probably do something like that with 5Ed.

 

[Wik]

I really like what you went with. It's a cool rule, and it fits a nice theme that we don't get in D&D. It actually reminds me of Shadowrun (as opposed to Dragonlance, as another poster mentioned).

In Shadowrun, you cast spells, and it could cause stun damage to you. Cast the big ones, or the ones you didn't know too well, and it could hurt you just as bad as a gun shot. I've played games as the group mage where I was taking buttloads of stimulants, trying to keep my stun damage down, while throwing off all sorts of magical mojo, hoping I'd stay alive long enough in the now to probably die when the stims wore off.

It's fun, and it's a nice model of trying to heroically "push your luck".

Now, for the down side on this. And it's a problem that crops up in every role-playing game that tries to model this "heroic magical drain".

A concentration check is a constitution check. Basically, you've now created a system where many more concentration checks will be conceivably made. Meaning, for wizards to succeed, they're going to want to have a high concentration score. In other words, it's quite possible you'll see wizard players making constitution their second highest score, instead of dexterity or wisdom. Which leads to big, beefy wizards.

Could be fine for your game, but I always feel there's a thematic disconnect. How does Raistlin, scrawny pup that he is, get to be the best wizard evar? Or, if Shadowrun went this route, why do all the good wizards have better health than the typical street samurai?

My suggestion would be to change this to a different ability score. Instead of being a concentration check (which can also be modified by feats!), make it it's own thing. And make it a wisdom check, or even an intelligence check (having it key off the caster's prime stat is nice, mechanically at least). It becomes less about enduring the pain of holding multiple spells, and more about, well, actually trying to concentrate on multiple spell formulae at once.

 

[phantomK9]

A couple years ago, I started brainstorming about using 3.5Ed's fatigue mechanic (Fatigued => Exhausted => Staggered => Unconscious) as an alternative way to model Energy Drain effects of undead and certain necromantic effects. Just as scary & conceptually appropriate as level draining, but with much less bookkeeping for the players.

You could probably do something like that with 5Ed.

I've actually thought about exactly that mechanic, especially since one of my favorite 3.5 alternates was True20. I think the current 5e Exhaustion rules encompass that mechanic just without giving a name to each step on the downward spiral.

I really like what you went with. It's a cool rule, and it fits a nice theme that we don't get in D&D. It actually reminds me of Shadowrun (as opposed to Dragonlance, as another poster mentioned).....It's fun, and it's a nice model of trying to heroically "push your luck".

Oh yes, Shadowrun had a great spell casting system. One of my favorites. I ran quite a few games of Shadowrun and pretty much always had one mage who said "F it!" and pulled out all the stops to cast the biggest spell and then promptly passed out.

A concentration check is a constitution check. Basically, you've now created a system where many more concentration checks will be conceivably made. Meaning, for wizards to succeed, they're going to want to have a high concentration score. In other words, it's quite possible you'll see wizard players making constitution their second highest score, instead of dexterity or wisdom. Which leads to big, beefy wizards.

I don't see that as a problem. How much of a difference are we really talking about +1 maybe +2 over what the Wiz would normally take. I've seen quite a few take a high Con anyway just for the extra hit points.

My suggestion would be to change this to a different ability score. Instead of being a concentration check (which can also be modified by feats!), make it it's own thing. And make it a wisdom check, or even an intelligence check (having it key off the caster's prime stat is nice, mechanically at least). It becomes less about enduring the pain of holding multiple spells, and more about, well, actually trying to concentrate on multiple spell formulae at once.

While conceptually, that seems like a great idea, once it is tied to a specific mental ability, then any caster who use that ability are immediately at a huge advantage over the other types of casters. Make it Con based doesn't favor one over the other and leaves them all on an even playing field.

The converse of this would be to let them use their casting ability, but this I think would make the check so easy that it wouldn't be much of a challenge to begin with.

 

[phantomK9]

There has been some great feedback, my players seem to like the rule (although we haven't tried it out yet).

Here are some other thoughts I've had for using Exhaustion:

- Allow the character to gain another use of a limited per day class ability for one level of Exhaustion.

- Allow the character to take another action in the round for one level of Exhaustion (or maybe a whole additional Action + Move + bonus action....not sure)

 

[Morlock]

A concentration check is a constitution check. Basically, you've now created a system where many more concentration checks will be conceivably made. Meaning, for wizards to succeed, they're going to want to have a high concentration score. In other words, it's quite possible you'll see wizard players making constitution their second highest score, instead of dexterity or wisdom. Which leads to big, beefy wizards.

Could be fine for your game, but I always feel there's a thematic disconnect. How does Raistlin, scrawny pup that he is, get to be the best wizard evar? Or, if Shadowrun went this route, why do all the good wizards have better health than the typical street samurai?

I was thinking the other day that game balance aside, STR bonuses to HP might make more sense to me than CON bonuses, where STR is size and brawn, and CON is immune system and endurance. Again, balance aside, that would make CON a more realistic pump stat for magic-users in your scenario.

 

[jgsugden]

I would be careful about playing around with exhaustion - it screws Frenzy Barbarians if you give other classes opportunity to use it for additional purposes as they can't afford to do so because they have a core mechanic already adding to it. You're basically giving new abilities to everyone but them...

 

[mlund]

I hand out exhaustion to people when they'd logically have incurred some sort of lingering injury I don't have an otherwise clear mechanic for. Usually being dragged from death's door (one bad die roll away from death) after a critical hit or contracting some particularly nasty disease that's otherwise boring. I could also see using it as part of a Faustian Bargain when a player wants to do some sort of heroic exertion that's otherwise appropriate to the scene but not provided for in the general order of play - like using their reaction to sprint across the room and catch an ally before he or she falls into the volcano, etc. I always apply the exhaustion level related to a combat encounter -after- the encounter so it does not present an immediate death spiral mid-combat.

Marty Lund

 

[AtomicPope]

We changed the damage rules to add exhaustion when you're dropped to zero hit points or when a creature is forced out of a shape-changed form. This greatly limits the effectiveness of low-level healing spells like Healing Word and Wild Shape temp hit points, which was intentional. Also, if you're getting dropped every fight by the end of the day you'll have 3 or 4 levels of exhaustion. Reading the effects of exhaustion it's easy to see it as a "damage track". Adding a damage track changes the way the game is played. There's less of an incentive to give a player 1 hit point so they can immediately be back in the fight at full effectiveness because that could get them seriously injured or killed.

After combat is also when their exhaustion levels matter. A short rest won't get rid of them. A long rest isn't enough either if you're really beat up. In order to get rid of exhaustion levels quickly you'll need powerful magic. Again, this means spamming Cure Wounds won't fix the problem. It's almost like they have a broken rib, bruised organs or fractured foot. Cure Wounds stops the bleeding and closes it up but that's all. You're still limping and in pain. You'll need powerful magic or time to heal you.

So far it's worked great. There's no crazy bookkeeping either. We've just added Exhaustion Boxes to our character sheets in the hit points section.