D&D 5E Don't Throw 5e Away Because of Hasbro

[Art Waring]

WOTC still does most of the advertising for the D&D space.

My argument is that if we drop Hasbro, someone else has to drop a fat stack of cash to keep the current state going.

And if we encourage that, we can't act shocked if they turn into greedy capitalists as well.

And if we don't encourage that, we can't be shocked if the D&Dverse shrinks and/or slows.

Well, we do live in a capitalist society, curious...

I do understand your position, I just don't think it draws much water.

MCDM just made i think 4 million? Did they rely on wotc or dnd at all for their kickstarter?

Shadowdark & Mothership made over a million this last year. This website has its own thread about million dollar kickstarters, many of them are games that have no connection to wotc or dnd.

Youtubers can advertise for a game and make it successful without the help of wotc or dnd. There is an entire OSR scene that does well and they don't even advertise the same ways that big corps do.

 

[Scribe]

WOTC still does most of the advertising for the D&D space.

My argument is that if we drop Hasbro, someone else has to drop a fat stack of cash to keep the current state going.

And if we encourage that, we can't act shocked if they turn into greedy capitalists as well.

And if we don't encourage that, we can't be shocked if the D&Dverse shrinks and/or slows.

Between the already successful 5e, BG3, and word of mouth, what really does D&D need to advertise for?

I dont see a thing if its not posted here, where's all this great advertising being done?

 

[Malmuria]

For the past nine months, I’ve heard from a fair number of people, including people close to me and people I’ve worked with, say they don’t want anything to do with Hasbro, WOTC, or D&D. Unfortunately, they’re piling all of 5e in there too.

5e isn’t D&D. Since its release into the Creative Commons by two different companies, 5e is now an open system supported by hundreds of publishers and, in some cases, with whole games built around it.

I'm a longtime follower of your work, blog, and channel. The points you bring up here do strike me as a truism...as in, of course I can play 5e without buying anything from Hasbro. Personally I've barely bought anything from Hasbro as it is!

But the reason it strikes me that way is that I can't really relate to anxiety about the "direction of dnd" or about what to call the "2024" edition. Let me ask you this: if some people who are upset at Hasbro decide to stop playing 5e all together, so what? If they enjoy 5e, or if they don't know about 3p 5e products, then maybe they are doing themselves a disservice. Either way, however, their decision doesn't affect other people. They'll maybe find other ttrpgs, and the hobby will be better because of it. It only really affects you if it is someone at your table that flat out refuses to play 5e, but the same could be said if anyone at your table flat out refuses to play any other game that you are interested in.

 

[Minigiant]

Well, we do live in a capitalist society, curious...

I do understand your position, I just don't think it draws much water.

MCDM just made i think 4 million? Did they rely on wotc or dnd at all for their kickstarter?

Shadowdark & Mothership made over a million this last year. This website has its own thread about million dollar kickstarters, many of them are games that have no connection to wotc or dnd.

Youtubers can advertise for a game and make it successful without the help of wotc or dnd. There is an entire OSR scene that does well and they don't even advertise the same ways that big corps do.

My point is that it was WOTC's ad dollars that created the economy and fan base that let MCDM make 4 million.

It's a pipeline.

If WOTC doesn't blanket the net with ads, there are far fewer fans to get fed up with Hasbro to jump to other games.

Hasbro is the necessary evil to get all the games to leave Hasbro for.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

If you have everything you want, you are fine. But if you want a continuation of what we get or even more, then even more action is required. Because with the history we already have, RPGs without big money backing by either fans or corporations stagnate in content and offer the same stuff over and over slowly. If that's what you want, great. If we create a new boss who is the same as the old boss, old Minigiant won't be fooled that's for sure.

You seem to be advocating precisely for the bolded bit by saying "We have to support one company and make them huge!". So it's very strange you would say that.

Also:

RPGs without big money backing by either fans or corporations stagnate in content and offer the same stuff over and over slowly.

No.

That's straightforwardly false. When TSR was dying in the 1990s and no other company was particularly huge except White Wolf, we saw a ton of innovation, a ton of new ideas, a ton of new RPGs. Indeed, directly to the contrary of your claim, the most interesting stuff was consistently coming from smaller companies. It was larger ones which were merely rehashing the same material.

Further, all the biggest innovations and most innovative and clever RPGs of the last 15 years have been from "small money" not "big money". Apocalypse World made a bigger real on RPG design than D&D 5E ever, ever, ever will. And it was basically two people in a shed.

So you want to claim "big money" is required to prevent stagnation, you're going to need evidence, and let me be clear - my position is that that evidence simply doesn't exist. That most real innovation, most real improvement and excitement in the TT RPG space has come from small money, historically, and I don't see that necessarily changing.

Kickstarter and its ilk have made some interesting RPGs happen, and having involved relatively large sums of money, but the vast majority of well-funded Kickstarters and the like are absolutely stagnant and offer "the same stuff over and over".

 

[Stormonu]

I see D&D kind of like Linux. Yes, you have corporations like Red Hat doing paid development. But, even without them people would still develop for Linux, albeit at a much slower rate.

If Hasbro got out of the game, people would still develop new stuff for D&D. Someone else might pick up the torch, but they would not be required. The game could go back to a cottage industry being run by people from their basements putting out stuff they enjoy. Maybe with a company or two doing it for actual money.

For the most part, it seems more and more Hasbro is keeping the lights for D&D using a large bit of nostalgia to keep interest up, rather than pushing the envelope. That's fine, there's a lot of people who like seeing old friends make a comeback. But I don't necessarily need Hasbro, or Piazo, or Kobold Press or any company to be the one doing it.

tl;dr - If Hasbro goes away, we don't necessarily need another corporation to pick up the baton. Fans could keep it alive (if just barely) without it having to be pay-for-content, especially in the hands of a business who doesn't have the community's interest in the forefront.

 

[Art Waring]

My point is that it was WOTC's ad dollars that created the economy and fan base that let MCDM make 4 million.

It's a pipeline.

If WOTC doesn't blanket the net with ads, there are far fewer fans to get fed up with Hasbro to jump to other games.

Hasbro is the necessary evil to get all the games to leave Hasbro for.

I disagree with this. Wotc adds lead to people buying wotc products, they have significantly less impact on that kickstarters sales due to the fact that the creator literally has their own youtube channel and a lot of followers, making for their own "ecosystem" completely divorced from anything wotc is doing.

If by pipeline, you mean bottleneck for the industry, then yes, that is exactly what wotc is. Corporations will, IMO, never be a necessary evil in a tiny niche industry with a hard cap on growth.

 

[Vaalingrade]

My point is that it was WOTC's ad dollars that created the economy and fan base that let MCDM make 4 million.

And it was Stranger Things, a bunch of streamers and a global pandemic that made WotC those ad dollars. They're part of the ecosystem, not the ecosystem itself.

And I don't see anyone telling us that we need the pandemic to hang around because we 'need' it.

 

[GothmogIV]

For the past nine months, I’ve heard from a fair number of people, including people close to me and people I’ve worked with, say they don’t want anything to do with Hasbro, WOTC, or D&D. Unfortunately, they’re piling all of 5e in there too.

5e isn’t D&D. Since its release into the Creative Commons by two different companies, 5e is now an open system supported by hundreds of publishers and, in some cases, with whole games built around it.

5e is now and forever an independent tabletop roleplaying platform not tied to any single company.

If someone doesn’t like 5e as a system, that’s totally fine. Not every system is for everyone. I know many who love the tactical crunchiness and character customization of Pathfinder 2. I know many others who love the fast and furious grim dark fantasy of old-school games like Shadowdark, EZD6, and Old School Essentials. That’s cool.

Likewise, if you’re happy with D&D and don’t want or need anything else, that’s cool too. Most D&D players probably never consider products outside of what WOTC produces for D&D. I definitely recommend looking at the many awesome D&D / 5e compatible products many other publishers have created. Here are ten notable products for 2022 and my YouTube video segment on favorite products of 2023, all from other publishers than WOTC. Check them out.

If you enjoy 5e but you’re done with Hasbro or WOTC or the D&D brand, this message is for you.

5e isn’t D&D.

You can enjoy the hell out of 5e without having to use any products or pay any money to Hasbro.

There are several excellent alternative core books for 5e – my current favorite being EN Publishing’s Level Up Advanced 5e and more on the way like Kobold Press’s Tales of the Valiant.

These companies pay no license fees to Hasbro. Their work is completely independent from D&D. In A5e’s case, they have their own system reference document they wrote and released under a Creative Commons license that’s significantly bigger than the 5.1 SRD.

These systems and products are completely independent from Hasbro or WOTC or D&D. 5e's rules were built by designers, many of whom aren't at Hasbro anymore, based on principles that go back 50 years and two full company acquisitions ago.

Yes, 5e came from the development of the 2014 version of D&D. 5e stands for “5th edition” and that’s the 5th edition of D&D, but that doesn’t matter now. Now, all of the mechanics are released under a Creative Commons license and, as mentioned, there’s a whole separate one you can use instead if you don’t want to use the one published by WOTC.

If you love 5e, as I do, don’t throw it out just because you’re mad at one company publishing material for it. 5e is ours and I personally think it’s awesome. You’re not hurting anyone or supporting the wrong group by buing products for it, running it, and playing it.

Game on.

For the past nine months, I’ve heard from a fair number of people, including people close to me and people I’ve worked with, say they don’t want anything to do with Hasbro, WOTC, or D&D. Unfortunately, they’re piling all of 5e in there too.

5e isn’t D&D. Since its release into the Creative Commons by two different companies, 5e is now an open system supported by hundreds of publishers and, in some cases, with whole games built around it.

5e is now and forever an independent tabletop roleplaying platform not tied to any single company.

If someone doesn’t like 5e as a system, that’s totally fine. Not every system is for everyone. I know many who love the tactical crunchiness and character customization of Pathfinder 2. I know many others who love the fast and furious grim dark fantasy of old-school games like Shadowdark, EZD6, and Old School Essentials. That’s cool.

Likewise, if you’re happy with D&D and don’t want or need anything else, that’s cool too. Most D&D players probably never consider products outside of what WOTC produces for D&D. I definitely recommend looking at the many awesome D&D / 5e compatible products many other publishers have created. Here are ten notable products for 2022 and my YouTube video segment on favorite products of 2023, all from other publishers than WOTC. Check them out.

If you enjoy 5e but you’re done with Hasbro or WOTC or the D&D brand, this message is for you.

5e isn’t D&D.

You can enjoy the hell out of 5e without having to use any products or pay any money to Hasbro.

There are several excellent alternative core books for 5e – my current favorite being EN Publishing’s Level Up Advanced 5e and more on the way like Kobold Press’s Tales of the Valiant.

These companies pay no license fees to Hasbro. Their work is completely independent from D&D. In A5e’s case, they have their own system reference document they wrote and released under a Creative Commons license that’s significantly bigger than the 5.1 SRD.

These systems and products are completely independent from Hasbro or WOTC or D&D. 5e's rules were built by designers, many of whom aren't at Hasbro anymore, based on principles that go back 50 years and two full company acquisitions ago.

Yes, 5e came from the development of the 2014 version of D&D. 5e stands for “5th edition” and that’s the 5th edition of D&D, but that doesn’t matter now. Now, all of the mechanics are released under a Creative Commons license and, as mentioned, there’s a whole separate one you can use instead if you don’t want to use the one published by WOTC.

If you love 5e, as I do, don’t throw it out just because you’re mad at one company publishing material for it. 5e is ours and I personally think it’s awesome. You’re not hurting anyone or supporting the wrong group by buing products for it, running it, and playing it.

Game on.

Mike, I hope that 5e manages to break away from WotC and Hasboro. There is so much great content being made out there, and good people like you are making great products for the system. But I think the anger at WotC/Hasboro has made people look elsewhere for game and game systems. I have heard an awful lot of whistling past the graveyard after Ben Rigg's piece last week from people who make their money off of 5e, and being WotC-adjacent. You might want to think about making stuff that is system agnostic, or start working in a different system (there are so many!) Your awesome DM advice is useful no matter what game people play. I wish you only the best, my man. None of this is your fault.

 

[Minigiant]

I disagree with this. Wotc adds lead to people buying wotc products, they have significantly less impact on that kickstarters sales due to the fact that the creator literally has their own youtube channel and a lot of followers, making for their own "ecosystem" completely divorced from anything wotc is doing.

If by pipeline, you mean bottleneck for the industry, then yes, that is exactly what wotc is. Corporations will, IMO, never be a necessary evil in a tiny niche industry with a hard cap on growth.

No I meant pipeline.

I heard so much about the ever increasing costs of making a high quality RPG. if the fanbase shrinks, there won't be enough money to keep those million dollar kickstarters going. Increases in printing costs, real art from real not-AI artists, playtesters, video ad, stream ads, proofreaders.

I mean, will 5e fans be okay with mono colored text heavy paper books with little art because it's cheap?

Edit: With a throng of clickbaiting content creators ready to attack you if anything with your Kickstarter goes wrong, or a book is late, or if you balance something wrong. I'd want Hasbro around just to take the eyesoff.