D&D 5E Don't Throw 5e Away Because of Hasbro

[Art Waring]

While I largely disagree with the person you are replying to, I do understand this particular argument.

In a world where DnD didn't exist:

• Matt Colville doesn't make a name for himself through Youtube by teaching people how to run a game better than WotC did.
• MCDM doesn't earn good will for making great products for a dominant gaming ecosystem. MCDM probably doesn't even exist how we know it to be.
• Without the Youtube channel centered on DnD and 30 issues of Arcadia/Flee Mortals, and then to a lesser extent their classes, even if MCDM did exist it probably doesn't make $4.6M on a game that is, even with shaking up sacred cows, largely based on tropes laid out by DnD. (6 stats, a skill list with a lot of crossover, etc.)

I won't speak for that individual. But you are basically saying that a rising tide lift all boats, and you kind of need some evidence to prove that, given that over 90% of the entire industry, likely more, is just dnd.

In a world where dnd doesn't exist, that dude would likely have gone to work for one of the many other companies making games he has worked on, he might have even made his own rpg sooner, had he not had to hitch his wagons to dnd in the first place.

 

[Art Waring]

can they survive on 30k buyers, maybe 100k after the KS and drawing in more customers, probably (assuming they do manage to draw them in), but how many can manage this level of interest?

If you have no one drawing people to TTRPGs in general, I am not so sure we would have that many games or players as we do now


and about 2/3 of them are for D&D…

Regardless of any of the numbers, there is a hard cap on the entire industry, as without GM's, we don't have any games to play in (and no one to buy books). If dnd fails, GM's might adopt other games, instead of constantly being forced to play dnd because of peer pressure.

Dnd isn't a gateway game that onboards players to try other games, it is becoming a closed garden where you just play dnd and nothing else. How exactly is this good for the industry?

 

[Micah Sweet]

My point is that it was WOTC's ad dollars that created the economy and fan base that let MCDM make 4 million.

It's a pipeline.

If WOTC doesn't blanket the net with ads, there are far fewer fans to get fed up with Hasbro to jump to other games.

Hasbro is the necessary evil to get all the games to leave Hasbro for.

What ads? Where are all these ads?

 

[Minigiant]

I won't speak for that individual. But you are basically saying that a rising tide lift all boats, and you kind of need some evidence to prove that, given that over 90% of the entire industry, likely more, is just dnd.

In a world where dnd doesn't exist, that dude would likely have gone to work for one of the many other companies making games he has worked on, he might have even made his own rpg sooner, had he not had to hitch his wagons to dnd in the first place.

I'm not saying rising tide lifts all boats. What I'm saying is vast majority of the D&D adjacent RPGs's fans are former or current D&D fans.
They aren't pulling fans out of the nonTTRPG spaces. They are mostly converting D&D fans.
Throwing away Hasbro on that end means learning to attract fans outside of D&D. And that's hard.

Non D&D adjacent RPGs have been struggling with this for years.

 

[Art Waring]

I'm not saying rising tide lifts all boats. What I'm saying is vast majority of the D&D adjacent RPGs's fans are former or current D&D fans.
They aren't pulling fans out of the nonTTRPG spaces. They are mostly converting D&D fans.
Throwing away Hasbro on that end means learning to attract fans outside of D&D. And that's hard.

Non D&D adjacent RPGs have been struggling with this for years.

And that is the exact reason the rest of the industry has struggled, because dnd/ wotc is so monolithic, it may as well be a monopoly.

I'll repeat it because it bears repeating, the previous d20 glut almost destroyed the entire industry when it collapsed (thanks to wotc killing the d20 STL). Then, they tried to kill the OGL twice (first during 4e with the GSL and then in 2023 during the OGL Debacle), they don't deserve to be stewards of an industry when they tried to burn that entire industry to the ground.

And if it does burn to the ground, we will be here to sift through the ashes and salvage whatever is left, just like folks did when the d20 dam burst, nearly taking the entire industry with it.

 

[Minigiant]

And that is the exact reason the rest of the industry has struggled, because dnd/ wotc is so monolithic, it may as well be a monopoly.

I'll repeat it because it bears repeating, the previous d20 glut almost destroyed the entire industry when it collapsed (thanks to wotc killing the d20 STL). Then, they tried to kill the OGL twice (first during 4e with the GSL and then in 2023 during the OGL Debacle), they don't deserve to be stewards of an industry when they tried to burn that entire industry to the ground.

And if it does burn to the ground, we will be here to sift through the ashes and salvage whatever is left, just like folks did when the d20 dam burst, nearly taking the entire industry with it.

My point is no one deserves to be the steward of the the industry.

If one of them replaces Hasbro/WOTC, they will likely be just as bad as WOTC and TSR due to the money they'd both amass and desire.
And if Hasbro falls, the remaining publishers will slaughter each other for the scraps of the dying industry due t the even more toxic economy of today.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Regardless of any of the numbers, there is a hard cap on the entire industry, as without GM's, we don't have any games to play in (and no one to buy books). If dnd fails, GM's might adopt other games, instead of constantly being forced to play dnd because of peer pressure.

Dnd isn't a gateway game that onboards players to try other games, it is becoming a closed garden where you just play dnd and nothing else. How exactly is this good for the industry?

The only way for this to change is for other companies to create actually good games, that have good, non-toxic communities that support and advocate for them inclusively.

Is there a beloved game that doesn't get the attention it deserves? Something is missing from the mix.

 

[Art Waring]

My point is no one deserves to be the steward of the the industry.

If one of them replaces Hasbro/WOTC, they will likely be just as bad as WOTC and TSR due to the money they'd both amass and desire.
And if Hasbro falls, the remaining publishers will slaughter each other for the scraps of the dying industry due t the even more toxic economy of today.

I agree no one should be the steward of the industry.

I do not agree that publishers will "slaughter" each other, there is enough to go around for everyone (assuming dnd burns to the ground, which it probably won't anytime soon). Tales of the Valiant and A5E both co-exist and don't "slaughter" each other for scraps at wotc's table. Both of them bring new variety and new ideas, and variety is the spice of life.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Throwing away Hasbro on that end means learning to attract fans outside of D&D. And that's hard.

Good.

Let's do that then.

 

[SakanaSensei]

/j The only one keeping knives out of James Introcaso's and John Harper's hands is Hasbro! They go, it's gonna get bloody fast!