D&D 5E Don't Throw 5e Away Because of Hasbro

[Dire Bare]

Why are we quibbling over how large a problem this is? How many folks are upset with WotC, and willing to abandon playing 5E as a result? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? Millions?

Does the order of magnitude have to be in the millions for us to have a conversation about it? Mike has a decent number of folks in his circles expressing this, some of you don't. Okay.

All Mike is saying is that if you are considering trashing D&D due to anger at WotC . . . don't. There is a lot of wonderful non-WotC 5E available right now, and even more on the way.

Of course, if you are tired of D&D 5E itself, sure, try something different. If you aren't purchasing new WotC books, but happy to use your existing books, that's great too.

I'm not going to be boycotting WotC or D&D 5E at the moment, but my enthusiasm for new WotC products has waned due to the many missteps they've made as a company this year. I'm curious about the new alt-5E rulesets coming out this year including Kobold's Tales of the Valiant. I'm very excited about Cubicle 7's Broken Weave (or C7d20), as I've really enjoyed Uncharted Journeys and A Life Well Lived. If I never purchase a new WotC book again, I'm spoiled for new options and adventures for my D&D 5E game!

 

[Remathilis]

1. As @MichaelSomething said, designing to be hands or and disorganized for DM is order to not feel like they are telling or teaching DMs how to play
2. Not exploring new class ideas that developed in fantasy in the last 2 decades
3. No exploring new settings that that developed in fantasy in the last 2 decades
4. Half assing attempts to appeal to new tropes (beastmasters, ATLA, dragonborn, tactical combat)
5. Heavily focus on reflavoring rather than exploring mechanics which match flavor

WOTC more or less left the "younger people stuff" to 3PP but the community mostly doesn't see 3PP product. So it comes off as a remake of Grandpa's favorite blockbuster sitcom.

And yet they have been lambasted for catering to younger audiences with products like Strixhaven, Radiant Citadel, Witchlight, the changes to Ravenloft and Spelljammer, and rules updates like floating ASI and several Tasha ideas (wild magic barbarians, swarm rangers). They get skewered for not being faithful to "the Lore (TM)" and changing several monster and species origins. Its kinda like they can't win for changing things OR keeping them the same...

 

[Stormonu]

What rules do you think they wrote, expecting them to be ignored? I would assume they write rules they expect to be used, knowing that different tables will tweak them in different directions (but most probably just use them)

At the least, Alignment and Encumbrance.

 

[Minigiant]

And yet they have been lambasted for catering to younger audiences with products like Strixhaven, Radiant Citadel, Witchlight, the changes to Ravenloft and Spelljammer, and rules updates like floating ASI and several Tasha ideas (wild magic barbarians, swarm rangers). They get skewered for not being faithful to "the Lore (TM)" and changing several monster and species origins. Its kinda like they can't win for changing things OR keeping them the same...

Its almost like D&D is a 50 year old game that has fans that span over 5 generations and should be designed internally, externally, and in between as such.

Crazy thought.

Then maybe people might be more receptive to 3rd party product as the game sows seeds into all kinds of fantasy early that outside publishers can link to instead of being a complete branch out of it.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Sure, there are people who don't want to buy any new books from Hasbro. They'll keep playing 5e with what they have or turn to third parties. There are also people who dropped their dndbeyond accounts to avoid supporting Hasbro any further.

But are there people who already own the books in some format, and who genuinely want to play, who simply refuse to play because the game is so tainted by its association with Hasbro? If that's a large number it would be very surprising to me.

If anything, I would assume the opposite situation is far more common: people who are conflicted because they buy every book and have a dndbeyond subscription, yet they feel queasy about supporting Hasbro. For those folk, the suggestion to turn their purchasing power toward 3pp is a fantastic idea.

That's a good thought. This whole thread might go over a little better if it was phrased more as, "Hey, want to show WotC that you're displeased with them while still playing the game that you love? Try 5E by all the fine folks that make 3P publications! They love the game as much as you do, and they treat their customers with respect!"

There's something I can get behind.

(You know, other than that I own a FLGS and it's a LOT easier for me to get my hands on WotC stuff than many of the best 3PP, but I do my best to carry what I can, when I can!)

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Why are we quibbling over how large a problem this is? How many folks are upset with WotC, and willing to abandon playing 5E as a result? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? Millions?

"Quibbling" is a bit strong - it implies someone is getting worked up about the numbers. I don't think anyone is. Discussing it? Mentioning it? I mean, YOU just mentioned it, too!

Does the order of magnitude have to be in the millions for us to have a conversation about it?

It's pretty hard to have a conversation about anything if people tell you that you're not supposed to talk about your thoughts on the subject.

Mike has a decent number of folks in his circles expressing this, some of you don't. Okay.

Yup. It's okay! No one said that it wasn't okay, that I saw.

All Mike is saying is that if you are considering trashing D&D due to anger at WotC . . . don't. There is a lot of wonderful non-WotC 5E available right now, and even more on the way.

Yup. That's great!

Of course, if you are tired of D&D 5E itself, sure, try something different. If you aren't purchasing new WotC books, but happy to use your existing books, that's great too.

Yup! I think most people are in agreement on this.

I'm not going to be boycotting WotC or D&D 5E at the moment, but my enthusiasm for new WotC products has waned due to the many missteps they've made as a company this year.

Agreed. I've certainly started looking at other rulesets, if only to see more of what's going on "out there". No boycott, though!

I'm curious about the new alt-5E rulesets coming out this year including Kobold's Tales of the Valiant. I'm very excited about Cubicle 7's Broken Weave (or C7d20), as I've really enjoyed Uncharted Journeys and A Life Well Lived. If I never purchase a new WotC book again, I'm spoiled for new options and adventures for my D&D 5E game!

I'm pretty excited to try MCDM RPG. And to play Shadowdark. (Two very different takes on fantasy RPGs)!

 

[SlyFlourish]

How I see the three popular 5e non-WoTC products.

Level Up Advanced 5e - D&D 5e Enhanced
(with improvements made over the base game like AD&D2e over AD&D sort of, hence several changes from 5e this, its own SRD in place of SRD5.1).

Fateforge 5e - D&D 5e Beautified
(the original 5e rules just presented more artistically with a few minor embellishments, hence, most terminology is same as SRD5 .1)

Core Fantasy 5e (Tales of the Valiant) - D&D 5e Revised
(mostly terms changed to move away from WoTC OGL but overall engine remains SRD5.1 with several revisions like Spell Levels replaced so may need a Core Fantasy SRD like Level Up has).

Why not see them as their own awesome independent 5e games that happen to also be compatible with D&D? Let's move D&D and Hasbro out of the hub and into one of the spokes.

 

[SlyFlourish]

I've had a lot of difficulty with 5e. The one time I tried to incorporate Level Up into an existing game, the magic item economy threw off everything (going from OAR's Isle of Dread to NG's Necropolis). Maybe if I start from the beginning with Level Up without using gold rewards from a TSR-era adventure, things will be more balanced.
The challenge system for 5e is completely off to me, and makes it impossible to plan encounters. I haven't tried Monstrous Menagerie or Flee Mortals yet, so perhaps those will help. I also haven't tried the Lazy GM's encounter guidelines.
Does anyone know if the Lazy GM's encounter guidelines work with Monstrous Menagerie and/or Flee Mortals, or should I stick with the methods used in those books?

They do indeed work. That's one of the beauties of this whole thing. All these books work. In Forge of Foes, you don't even need a monster book, you can build your own on the fly.

 

[SlyFlourish]

Well, as Fitz said, it hasn't impacted his bottom line as a retailer. And the evidence seems to suggest thst it hasn't impacted WotC bottom line.

Thats true, but there could still be a lot of people in the hobby overall. I'm not talking about sales or market share – just people who liked 5e but are tossing it away. Maybe it's only a few, but I'm seeing it enough to warrant an EN World thread and a segment on my show about it.

If it's not a problem, I have nothing to worry about!

 

[SlyFlourish]

We can't, really, but you "hang out" and "bump into" exactly the kind of people who WotC's shenanigans would most bother. In other words, your personal experience is very likely to skew extremely toward those who are talking about it.

Much like many people here, if it weren't for me hanging out on these boards, I'd barely notice it - and I work in the industry! I had... I think it was TWO groups? Certainly not more than a handful, that "switched to Pathfinder" during the PEAK of the OGL fiasco (and I would bet that a few of them switched back after it "died down"). After that, I've not seen anyone talk about it at all.

Sure, a lot of my opinion on the subject is "gut" based on experience and knowledge and utterly without any ability to predict the future (same as you!)

Your concerns are valid, and your solution is the right one, but I really don't see it being a very many people who take that stance. That said, 1) If they are mad enough to keep on trying to recruit others to join them, it could make a dent, depending on who they are; and 2) I always believe (and fight for) the idea that companies should do everything they can to keep their customers happy and everything they can to NOT do things that make them mad; so I'm not a fan of the argument, "it's okay for Company to do X because most of their customers won't care" - It's not okay, IMO, if anyone cares. They should try not to do things that make customers angry. They should try to do things that make customers happy. They're actively making my job harder. So overall, I'm absolutely with you, regardless of how relatively small I think your group is.

Your concern IS a concern - I absolutely support your fight against it. If I seem like I'm against you, please take it more like I'm patting you on the back and saying, "Don't worry, it's gonna be okay!" rather than dismissing you out of hand.

Good thoughts and good experiences to share! Thank you.

For me, it isn't really a matter of scale. Like my big worry about D&D Beyond becoming a walled garden that prevents D&D fans from expanding out into the larger 5e and TTRPG hobby – maybe it's not a big deal. But if even a handful happen to see my post and say "good, I don't have to throw away my enjoyment of 5e just because I'm pissed at Hasbro", I feel like it's worth the message.

On another related thought, I think we overweight the importance of Hasbro and D&D's size in the market. Sure, they're huge, but are they the ones really leading the industry from a design standpoint? I don't think so. I'm seeing some incredible products, for 5e and other TTRPGs that are way ahead. Some of this is because WOTC simply can't make them. They're not going to make a radical new monster book like Flee Mortals or publish Thirsty Sword Lesbians or a huge book of just traveling stuff like Uncharted Journeys.

But those products are awesome and people lose out if they don't consider them just because they come from smaller publishers.

And we can help! Promote your favorite 5e books that aren't just from WOTC!

Also, why are D&D books on the left-hand menu on EN World and not A5e?? @Morrus, whats up??