D&D 5E Don't Throw 5e Away Because of Hasbro

[FitzTheRuke]

How can we know how big it is? I keep hearing from them and running into people.

We can't, really, but you "hang out" and "bump into" exactly the kind of people who WotC's shenanigans would most bother. In other words, your personal experience is very likely to skew extremely toward those who are talking about it.

Much like many people here, if it weren't for me hanging out on these boards, I'd barely notice it - and I work in the industry! I had... I think it was TWO groups? Certainly not more than a handful, that "switched to Pathfinder" during the PEAK of the OGL fiasco (and I would bet that a few of them switched back after it "died down"). After that, I've not seen anyone talk about it at all.

Sure, a lot of my opinion on the subject is "gut" based on experience and knowledge and utterly without any ability to predict the future (same as you!)

Your concerns are valid, and your solution is the right one, but I really don't see it being a very many people who take that stance. That said, 1) If they are mad enough to keep on trying to recruit others to join them, it could make a dent, depending on who they are; and 2) I always believe (and fight for) the idea that companies should do everything they can to keep their customers happy and everything they can to NOT do things that make them mad; so I'm not a fan of the argument, "it's okay for Company to do X because most of their customers won't care" - It's not okay, IMO, if anyone cares. They should try not to do things that make customers angry. They should try to do things that make customers happy. They're actively making my job harder. So overall, I'm absolutely with you, regardless of how relatively small I think your group is.

Your concern IS a concern - I absolutely support your fight against it. If I seem like I'm against you, please take it more like I'm patting you on the back and saying, "Don't worry, it's gonna be okay!" rather than dismissing you out of hand.

 

[Faolyn]

So you are talking about the section of people that love 5e but that don’t want to play it anymore—even if they are just using already-purchased books—because of their dislike for Hasbro? Again, maybe I’m just out of touch but how many people are taking that exact stand? Sure, some people may decide against buying any new hasbro products, but how many people with a 2014 phb laying around will refuse to play a game they love because of what Hasbro did in 2023?

Probably a few, but I'd doubt it's more than a drop in a barrel's worth. My table is all pretty mad with WotC, both because of their recent stupidities and because several of their recent books were just really poorly done, and we're still playing it. We're just not buying new Hasbro books.

I will admit I stopped running my D&D games, but that's as much because I was getting a bit disillusioned with them and I really wanted to try other systems for a change.

 

[Minigiant]

have said in the past the weak point of d20 system is not ready to be universal and compatible. You can create a d20 sci-fi or a d20 superheroes, but the firearms and modern technology can't be added to fantasy d20 without a serious risk to break the power balance. This is a serious handicap if Hasbro wants to publish licenced titles based in franchises from cinematographic, comic, or videogame industries.

The d20 system is great. The 5e core system is the best D&D's had. The weak point of 5e is the flavor layer stop it of classes, races, feats designed for grognards who don't play 5e and sold to a majority under age 40.

So they get sunk into a sunk cost and demand backwards compatibility for the few projects and products they like or leave completely to a new system incompatible with 5e but demanding ill-fitting 5e remnants into it. All while spewing hate to 5e because of Hasbro's actions and holding their tongue on other companies and game systems.

The 5e community really has to learn to spread love of home few and houserule content that digs deep into the system and less on auxiliary and surface level products that ultimately don't get at a Fan's possible frustration with it.

 

[Malmuria]

How can we know how big it is? I keep hearing from them and running into people.

Sure, there are people who don't want to buy any new books from Hasbro. They'll keep playing 5e with what they have or turn to third parties. There are also people who dropped their dndbeyond accounts to avoid supporting Hasbro any further.

But are there people who already own the books in some format, and who genuinely want to play, who simply refuse to play because the game is so tainted by its association with Hasbro? If that's a large number it would be very surprising to me.

If anything, I would assume the opposite situation is far more common: people who are conflicted because they buy every book and have a dndbeyond subscription, yet they feel queasy about supporting Hasbro. For those folk, the suggestion to turn their purchasing power toward 3pp is a fantastic idea.

 

[Art Waring]

Incompatible yes. Obsolete, no.

Agreed, in the sense that the 5.1 SRD will always be useful to creators (just like older SRD's), but I meant to say that it will become obsolete for 3pp's who choose to stick with one-dnd in the future, IF, they release a new restrictive license like with 4e.

 

[mamba]

The weak point of 5e is the flavor layer stop it of classes, races, feats designed for grognards who don't play 5e and sold to a majority under age 40.

I am curious what you consider designed for grognards there (and how you would change it for the younger crowd)

 

[MichaelSomething]

I am curious what you consider designed for grognards there (and how you would change it for the younger crowd)

Designing for grognards is having a bunch of rules text but expecting the DM to just ignore it all and do what they want anyway?

Designing for younger people would be having the rules reflect how the game is actually played?

 

[mamba]

Designing for grognards is having a bunch of rules text but expecting the DM to just ignore it all and do what they want anyway?

is it? Are younger players sticking by all the rules?

What rules do you think they wrote, expecting them to be ignored? I would assume they write rules they expect to be used, knowing that different tables will tweak them in different directions (but most probably just use them)

Designing for younger people would be having the rules reflect how the game is actually played?

I’d say design the rules how you want the game to be played, whoever disagrees will tweak them anyway

Not sure any of this separates grognards from younger players however

 

[Art Waring]

theoretically yes, but that is not happening with the 2024 books

I guess we will have to wait & see.

has it? in ways that matter to the SRD?

Yes. I have noticed enough changes to suspect that publishers may need a new SRD to publish if the changes are significant enough. That makes the 5.1 SRD less than useful to make new 3pp content for dnd in the future. I am not going to make anything for it, just pointing out that those who stay with dnd may have difficulties ahead.

I fully expect a new CC SRD, or a delta document

I sure do hope so... but somehow i doubt it.

that was never promised, esp. not for 4e, which never had one

My bad on 4e, but i have a video right here with Kyle Brink stating they were going to release the 3.5 SRD into the creative commons. Still nothing on that end.

sorry to hear that, but could you not use the CC version instead? Heck, you could even still use the OGL, it never was rescinded.

Whatever stunt they pull in the future will be more likely to not update the SRD and turn incompatible than try to revoke the OGL again, so your game would be safe.

This seems to be mostly a matter of your lost trust rather than any legal change. Not saying that is not important, just wondering whether there is anything that can be salvaged

Yeah I am actually using both the A5E & the 5e SRD's, both placed under creative commons, instead of the old OGL to try and salvage what I can by creating my own system apart from 5e.

I'm still keeping some of the most basic elements like the d20, the full polyhedral array of dice in use, advantage/dis, and a few other bits. But I am cutting away all of the fat, I only use four ability scores, and a classless system, with over 40 mutant power categories and over 400 tiered powers (everything from psionics to strange mutations). Player facing rolls, advanced solo rules, and modular character creation are all an integral part of the game. Custom made healing & casting systems that put a new angle on how powers are used. A lot of what I design was intended to improve the 5e engine, but now I am leaving 5e and making my own game engine that better suits the games I like to run.

It has become something completely different from 5e in almost every way, save for the dice you use at the table.

What I lost was primarily time and years of hard work gone in an instant. I had to throw away years of writing and work on a unique setting. I also had to hire new artists to adjust to the new reality for the project, taking an entire year to get all of the final art submissions back. When you have to shift your project to an entirely new system, it can take years, as I can't afford to hire extra writers, I am doing all of this myself.

As for the OGL now being "safe", after twenty years of broken trust, I just can't put myself at risk like that. They can still try this again some time down the road. After failing the spirit of the OGL twice in spectacular fashion, I have no inclination to dip my toes into that pond ever again.

 

[Minigiant]

I am curious what you consider designed for grognards there (and how you would change it for the younger crowd)

1. As @MichaelSomething said, designing to be hands or and disorganized for DM is order to not feel like they are telling or teaching DMs how to play
2. Not exploring new class ideas that developed in fantasy in the last 2 decades
3. No exploring new settings that that developed in fantasy in the last 2 decades
4. Half assing attempts to appeal to new tropes (beastmasters, ATLA, dragonborn, tactical combat)
5. Heavily focus on reflavoring rather than exploring mechanics which match flavor

WOTC more or less left the "younger people stuff" to 3PP but the community mostly doesn't see 3PP product. So it comes off as a remake of Grandpa's favorite blockbuster sitcom.