D&D 5E Don't Throw 5e Away Because of Hasbro

[Warpiglet-7]

I haven't read the whole discussion, but I just wanted to say thank you for this post. It's really disheartening to see how many people have started to regard even playing 5E as morally suspect, even if you are using materials you bought before everything went south or even from the Creative Commons version.

Well I think things worked; the company made a bad decision in terms of customer satisfaction and people let them know. They responded—-not out of generosity but whatever.

They reversed course. I just played last night with pals and am going to DM the kids yet again this weekend. I am not letting a goofy prior corporate decision mess with my fun.

 

[Remathilis]

I'm building my own Weird West setting called Gothic Western that uses the real Old West (not an analog) with real world events, and personalities like Wyatt Earp, Marie Laveau (voodoo queen of New Orleans), Nikola Tesla, etc. Cthulhu-based horror and Masonic conspiracy theory. Because it doesn't have to be 5e only, I'm open to making a 5e compatible version...

The beauty of settings like that is they don't need a lot of mechanical support. You could possibly even make it system agnostic and add some supplemental support for PF & D&D on the side.

That said, that sounds like an interesting idea and I'd be interested in checking it out if you do run an agnostic or 5e variant. But I'm a sucker for horror settings.

 

[Remathilis]

No, this tracks. The 5E playerbase is not that friendly to third party content. A good number of folks do well but, overall, there is a very clear difference IMO in reception, even with things like A5E and its third party vs 5E (with A5E third party being very much endorsed and embraced).

Years of 3pp horror stories have given many DM's an unhealthy level of skepticism. They've been burned too many times by designers who don't understand the rules or math or design for another system and convert (a personal pet peeve, because you can always tell it wasn't done with 5e in mind). They get scrutiny for things that WOTC could probably get away with, for example people were complaining about wild power levels in Tal'dorei Reborn but there is nothing in that book that didn't fall between Beastmaster Ranger and Twilight Cleric in terms of power.

That said, I tend to stick to companies I know and trust, and with most of them not doing their own system, there isn't much I can use from them anymore...

 

[The Scythian]

No, this tracks. The 5E playerbase is not that friendly to third party content. A good number of folks do well but, overall, there is a very clear difference IMO in reception, even with things like A5E and its third party vs 5E (with A5E third party being very much endorsed and embraced).

You might be right, but in this case specifically, I think it's more a matter of Spelljammer deck plans not being all that useful to the vast majority of D&D players. Only some D&D players are going to buy the Spelljammer supplement. Of those, only some are going to end up running or playing in a Spelljammer campaign. Of those, only some are going to reach the point where they want or need any kind of third-party materials, like deck plans.

On the other hand, even though the number of Starfinder players is far smaller than the number of D&D players, starship deck plans might be useful to a much larger percentage of them, resulting in stronger sales. (On top of that, it's also possible that Starfinder deck plans might be useful to players of other science-fiction roleplaying games in ways that Spelljammer deck plans might not be.)

I'm not disagreeing with you. I think there is resistance to third-party products among a lot of D&D players, for a bunch of different reasons. But I also think that some products are just a lot less likely to sell well than others.

 

[Shardstone]

You might be right, but in this case specifically, I think it's more a matter of Spelljammer deck plans not being all that useful to the vast majority of D&D players. Only some D&D players are going to buy the Spelljammer supplement. Of those, only some are going to end up running or playing in a Spelljammer campaign. Of those, only some are going to reach the point where they want or need any kind of third-party materials, like deck plans.

On the other hand, even though the number of Starfinder players is far smaller than the number of D&D players, starship deck plans might be useful to a much larger percentage of them, resulting in stronger sales. (On top of that, it's also possible that Starfinder deck plans might be useful to players of other science-fiction roleplaying games in ways that Spelljammer deck plans might not be.)

I'm not disagreeing with you. I think there is resistance to third-party products among a lot of D&D players, for a bunch of different reasons. But I also think that some products are just a lot less likely to sell well than others.

I agree and disagree. I've seen a lot of people on Facebook, Reddit, and different Discords talk about how they actually wish that deck plans and more rules came with the ships. However, most of these people don't enjoy using the DM's Guild and, more importantly, don't TRUST the DM's Guild. It isn't that players don't want what third party is offering. A lot of things I see both DMs and players ask for I've seen done well in 3rd parties. But due to the culture of distrust, those options are usually not considered and thus go unknown.

 

[Remathilis]

I agree and disagree. I've seen a lot of people on Facebook, Reddit, and different Discords talk about how they actually wish that deck plans and more rules came with the ships. However, most of these people don't enjoy using the DM's Guild and, more importantly, don't TRUST the DM's Guild. It isn't that players don't want what third party is offering. A lot of things I see both DMs and players ask for I've seen done well in 3rd parties. But due to the culture of distrust, those options are usually not considered and thus go unknown.

The problem is it doesn't take much for people to get burned.

Quick example: I was looking for some resources for running an adventure in Souragne in Ravenloft (a domain that is very styled in New Orleans/Southern Gothic/Voodoo). Looking to save some work, I Googles "5e voodoo adventures" and eventually stumbled across one that sounded interesting. It was cheap ($5) and I bought it. I promised new magic items, an adventure, and a "voodoo queen" class for NPCs.

It was bullocks. The module itself was bare bones with a plot that is literally spelled out in the opening text block. I've seen MMO fetch quests with better structure. The NPC class was basically "add the wizard spellcasting progression to the character" with no class features or abilities. The magic items were trash, the new spells were clearly imported from Pathfinder without thought (including spell effect scaling by caster level not spell level) and the whole thing was padded out (they gave a recipe for food to serve during the game!). The art in was nice for 3d rendered (not AI) but that was all it had.

I didn't expect much, and I was still disappointed. And I wish I could say that was a one-off, but I've seen my share of bad products in terms of balance, design, or functionality to the point that, unless it comes from a major publisher I trust, I expect it to be amateurish, broken, and will need to be reworked to be functional. I completely get why it has the reputation it has, and its VERY hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

The product wasn't DM's Guild, btw. It was some small studio I'm convinced was one guy using his blog to sell stuff.

 

[Zardnaar]

I haven't read the whole discussion, but I just wanted to say thank you for this post. It's really disheartening to see how many people have started to regard even playing 5E as morally suspect, even if you are using materials you bought before everything went south or even from the Creative Commons version.

I've more or less bought 0 since OGL but keeping older stuff is fine. Had stopped buying for other reasons though (decline in quality).

One of my clones turns out the owners is a giant douche. I'm keeping it and will use it but not buying any more.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The problem is it doesn't take much for people to get burned.

Quick example: I was looking for some resources for running an adventure in Souragne in Ravenloft (a domain that is very styled in New Orleans/Southern Gothic/Voodoo). Looking to save some work, I Googles "5e voodoo adventures" and eventually stumbled across one that sounded interesting. It was cheap ($5) and I bought it. I promised new magic items, an adventure, and a "voodoo queen" class for NPCs.

It was bullocks. The module itself was bare bones with a plot that is literally spelled out in the opening text block. I've seen MMO fetch quests with better structure. The NPC class was basically "add the wizard spellcasting progression to the character" with no class features or abilities. The magic items were trash, the new spells were clearly imported from Pathfinder without thought (including spell effect scaling by caster level not spell level) and the whole thing was padded out (they gave a recipe for food to serve during the game!). The art in was nice for 3d rendered (not AI) but that was all it had.

I didn't expect much, and I was still disappointed. And I wish I could say that was a one-off, but I've seen my share of bad products in terms of balance, design, or functionality to the point that, unless it comes from a major publisher I trust, I expect it to be amateurish, broken, and will need to be reworked to be functional. I completely get why it has the reputation it has, and its VERY hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

The product wasn't DM's Guild, btw. It was some small studio I'm convinced was one guy using his blog to sell stuff.

Some people make bad products. If you use that as an excuse to ignore and/or judge all products from a non-official source negatively that's on you.

 

[Zardnaar]

Some people make bad products. If you use that as an excuse to ignore and/or judge all products from a non-official source negatively that's on you.

Alot of 3pp stuff is crap, unbalanced etc and I buy 3pp.

Trusted companies eg Kobold Press, Paizo or individuals eg MT Black, some ENworlders. Or really cheap eg humble bundles (usually established 3pp ones).

 

[Micah Sweet]

Alot of 3pp stuff is crap, unbalanced etc and I buy 3pp.

Trusted companies eg Kobold Press, Paizo or individuals eg MT Black, some ENworlders. Or really cheap eg humble bundles (usually established 3pp ones).

That's how I do it. Do some research, use your experience, and make a choice. I don't paint with a broad brush, in large part because I don't assume WotC makes the best products or has any inherent superiority over other publishers.