D&D 5E Don't Throw 5e Away Because of Hasbro

[Art Waring]

Is Level Up A5e and Tales of the Valiant in that monoculture? Flee Mortals? These weee big projects that lots of people enjoyed. Them being small next to D&D doesn’t mean they’re not loved and valued by many.

For sure.

For the purposes of clarity, I will not try to speak for other independent publishers like A5e or TotV, as they likely have their own positions on the subject, and they might have their own perspectives on where they stand in the industry, and they deserve to be heard (if they want to say something about it).

If i could make a comparison though, I see it as a similar situation to Pathfinder 1e. When it started, it was essentially 3.75, and was very close to 3.5, with tweaks here and there for balance.

While PF started as dnd-adjacent, over the years it has evolved to become its own thing. PF2e is quite different from 5e, especially the remastered versions, and its fan-base is now completely separate from the dnd ecosystem.

Like PF, A5E and TotV are indeed starting out as 5e-adjacent, but they are fairly recent, and they will continue to evolve in their own directions, separate from other games. That is natural, as every game should change and evolve over time, and the more directions games branch out, instead of all going the same direction, the more diverse the hobby is.

 

[The Scythian]

It might have. But it isn't Hasbro's responsibility to keep afloat businesses whose primary reason for existence is the presence of one of their product lines. It might make a business sense for Hasbro to do so (and I think that it does), but it isn't their responsibility. It would be altruistic of them to do so, at the (perceived by them) cost to themselves. It's fantastic when people behave altruistically. Believe it or not, in my daily life, I go well out of my way to do so. It makes the world go round. But to expect that to happen as a matter of fact, and to start a business and take responsibility for the livelihoods of others, and hang your hat on the expected altruism of others... you have done wrong by the employees of your business.

This is simply incorrect. Nobody expected WotC to keep them afloat. Nobody built their business upon the "expected altruism" of WotC. They entered into a legal contract with WotC and abided by the terms of it in good faith. The only thing they expected of WotC was that they not attempt to renege on that contract.

Saying that OGL licensees relied on the altruism of WotC to publish products is like saying that Sony relies on Disney's altruism to make Spider-Man movies. A licensee is a licensee is a licensee.

 

[mamba]

This is simply incorrect. Nobody expected WotC to keep them afloat. Nobody built their business upon the "expected altruism" of WotC.

it also isn’t altruism when WotC benefits from it, as they knew they did when they created the license and as @Ulorian - Agent of Chaos believes himself

That incidentally is also why this is a contract that holds up in court as one (regardless of the perpetual issue). A contract that only benefits one side would not.

 

[The Scythian]

it also isn’t altruism when WotC benefits from it, as they knew they did when they created the license and as @Ulorian - Agent of Chaos believes himself

That incidentally is also why this is a contract that holds up in court as one (regardless of the perpetual issue). A contract that only benefits one side would not.

Yes. Absolutely correct. That both parties receive consideration from the contract is almost certainly the reason that they sought to "deauthorize" the OGL, twisting a part of the contract intended to protect licensees in order to harm them, instead of revoking it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is simply incorrect. Nobody expected WotC to keep them afloat. Nobody built their business upon the "expected altruism" of WotC. They entered into a legal contract with WotC and abided by the terms of it in good faith. The only thing they expected of WotC was that they not attempt to renege on that contract.

Far beyond the bounds of reason (certainly beyond good business sense and responsibility to your employees) to expect such a thing, apparently.

 

[gamerprinter]

Can I be honest. I remember Kaidan for Pathfinder after it was recommended to me and it’s a great setting. But I had no idea that you had released a 5e version.

I did a google search and nothing for Kaidan 5e came up on the first two pages - just Kaidan for pathfinder and OG1

I also did a search on Drive Thru RPG where I’ve bought your products previously and I couldn’t see anything for Kaiden 5e.

I even did a search for ‘Kaidan updated to 5e’ and couldn’t get anything recent.

In my experience (playing for 10 years and buying a lot stuff) Pathfinder has a smaller group of more dedicated followers and a lot less competition for a quality product like yours. 5e on the other hand has a much much bigger market but it’s harder to break through the volume.

Don’t give up. Maybe re-evaluate your marketing strategy and get some tasters out there. Start some threads discussing the setting and why it’s unique. Try and get some 5e reviews out there etc. I think you just need to generate some noise to get on google because right now even if I knew about 5e Kaidan I couldn’t buy it.

I didn't update Kaidan to 5e. I created Arcane Armada, a collection of 13 new Spelljammer ships and deck plans, no species and monsters for a nebula based star system for 5e.

 

[Remathilis]

For sure.

For the purposes of clarity, I will not try to speak for other independent publishers like A5e or TotV, as they likely have their own positions on the subject, and they might have their own perspectives on where they stand in the industry, and they deserve to be heard (if they want to say something about it).

If i could make a comparison though, I see it as a similar situation to Pathfinder 1e. When it started, it was essentially 3.75, and was very close to 3.5, with tweaks here and there for balance.

While PF started as dnd-adjacent, over the years it has evolved to become its own thing. PF2e is quite different from 5e, especially the remastered versions, and its fan-base is now completely separate from the dnd ecosystem.

Like PF, A5E and TotV are indeed starting out as 5e-adjacent, but they are fairly recent, and they will continue to evolve in their own directions, separate from other games. That is natural, as every game should change and evolve over time, and the more directions games branch out, instead of all going the same direction, the more diverse the hobby is.

Personally, I don't consider the Pathfinder model to be the best method for any and all games. In fact, I find that balkanizing the RPG section into a bunch of games that aren't intercompatible has lessened my desire for 3pp, not enhanced it.

To white, in 3.5 there were companies I looked at and purchased regularly: Green Ronin, Goodman Games, Paizo. Ran a lot of adventures and used supplements from each regularly. In the years since, I went for regularly purchasing them to having bought little from any of them in a long time. Why? Because each has put the vast majority of its energy into its home systems (PF, DCC, True 20) and I don't run any of them. I don't have the time to run more than one game (let alone system) and I simply have no need for multiple Fantasy RPGs. As each focused on their home system (and the home systems diverged farther and farther) I simply stopped buying from them.

The same will now probably happen with Kobold, MCDM, and such. What will happen is that plenty of independent RPG companies will make independent games that don't connect with one another, causing fans to "pick a system" and stick with it. And to be fair, my heavy investment in D&D 5e means that I'm far more likely to buy the PHB 24 (especially if it remains compatible with my older 5e books) than I am to pick of TotV, let alone PF2e. I'm getting too old to be starting again somewhere new...

I get it probably wasn't healthy to have so many games that are just reflections of the big dog, but I really DO miss the days I could mix and match my favorite publishers and designers because they all were designing in the same language and mechanics. Now, no matter what I think of Paizo as a company, I have no use for the products it designs these days.

 

[mearls]

I've updated the system. Digging deeper into the math showed - as many predicted - that the nature of scaling in 5e made this approach a non-starter. Here's a second cut based on an analysis of the math from levels 1 to 20.

5e_point_encounters/challenge_points.md at main · mikemearls/5e_point_encounters

A system for balancing encounters in 5e using point values - mikemearls/5e_point_encounters

github.com

 

[Cordwainer Fish]

I've updated the system. Digging deeper into the math showed - as many predicted - that the nature of scaling in 5e made this approach a non-starter. Here's a second cut based on an analysis of the math from levels 1 to 20.

5e_point_encounters/challenge_points.md at main · mikemearls/5e_point_encounters

A system for balancing encounters in 5e using point values - mikemearls/5e_point_encounters

github.com

You probably intended this for the other thread.

 

[mearls]

You probably intended this for the other thread.

I did! Thanks for pointing that out.