Doppleganger up!

[UnknownAtThisTime]

As a proponent of 4E "non Essentials", I have to say ....

I am definitely buying the Monster Vault, and it just might be a gateway drug to one or two other essentials products. I love what I have seen so far of the MV, in terms of some specific monsters and the additioinal material.

I'm just going to take a sharpie to the "E word" on the front to make myself feel better about the whole thing.

 

[Riastlin]

As a proponent of 4E "non Essentials", I have to say ....

I am definitely buying the Monster Vault, and it just might be a gateway drug to one or two other essentials products. I love what I have seen so far of the MV, in terms of some specific monsters and the additioinal material.

I'm just going to take a sharpie to the "E word" on the front to make myself feel better about the whole thing.

Heh. I'm not anti-essentials, but I've also refrained from buying anything but the Compendium (which is excellent). I am likely going to have to make an exception for the Vault as well though, if for no other reason than the tokens that come with it.

 

[UnknownAtThisTime]

Heh. I'm not anti-essentials, but I've also refrained from buying anything but the Compendium (which is excellent). I am likely going to have to make an exception for the Vault as well though, if for no other reason than the tokens that come with it.

Yep, we agree, those tokens put me over the top for sure.

I am looking at the Compendium as well, and soon I will no longer even be able to pretend I am an Essentials-ist.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

If he was meaning overall, it's actually even worse than that because many epic monsters are solos/elites. In fact what we need in epic monsters is just regular, non-elite and non-solos. If you remove much of the solos/elites from epic tier you're left with some demons and a handful of other creatures introduced in MM3. Epic tier is desperate for more regular, non-elite and non-solo monsters.

Edit: Abdul, this doppleganger mechanic isn't novel and is copied from a trap in Tomb of Horrors actually (without the countermeasure). Personally, monsters having powers that just work and aren't easily thwarted by the PCs is actually good. The creature functions a certain way, it's powers and abilities should allow it to function that way. That's what this creature does wonderfully. It is a control power, to deal with it move the ally away or push the creature away. If not, prepare to face the consequences.

I'd much rather have monsters powers be imposing but potentially thwartable and use mechanics that evocative of something. "I'm still next to you so you take an extra 6d8 damage" is pretty bland. I think monsters should be able to operate effectively, but really the whole POINT of monsters is they do strange things that nobody else can do. This particular monster's 'shtick' just seems to be implemented in a way that is rather characterless. Yes, you can use tactics to overcome it, and in fact said tactics are pretty straightforward, it is just hard to relate the extra damage it does to what it is doing in terms of the game world. Why does looking like your opponent grant you a whole bunch of extra damage?

I don't hate, I'm just not really impressed by it. Monsters need both mechanical and story coherency. This is one area where the designers still haven't entirely figured it out. The mechanical box things are put into with 4e is pretty tight. In the old days you could just describe the way the monster worked and not worry about it. By codifying everything 4e makes play easy, but it makes unusual monsters well, just not that unusual anymore. I mean all sorts of crazy stuff COULD be done, but then you'd need a page long stat block full of rules to weld it into the system (and doubtless said rules would create more questions than answers, as the Gelatinous Cube amply demonstrates).

Not that any of that really holds ME back as a DM, but it does seem to crimp some people's style a bit.

 

[Aegeri]

I've been disappointed with all the essentials material except for the Rules Compendium. I am expecting my disappointment to continue frankly. Maybe it's just the fact that I feel I'm already overwhelmed with really good choices for heroic/paragon monsters that does this. These monsters have also arguably suffered the least from errata to monster design.

Albeit, I will be biasing my choices in monster selection heavily to MM3, Dark Sun: Creature Catalog, MV and Demonomicon. They have some of the best monsters in 4E and Wizards monster design gets better and better. I'm going to be severely let down and disappointed if the next monster box, Threats to Nentir Vale is all heroic.

But then again I am suddenly dawning on the realization that future epic monsters may not actually exist. The Nentir Vale having a bunch of epic monsters running around in it just won't make a lick of sense. So I fear for another supplement with nothing for epic. Again.

I'd much rather have monsters powers be imposing but potentially thwartable and use mechanics that evocative of something. "I'm still next to you so you take an extra 6d8 damage" is pretty bland.

It is entirely thwartable. Forced movement and AoE attacks go straight through it. A control power that is beaten by control powers. Makes perfect sense.

I don't hate, I'm just not really impressed by it. Monsters need both mechanical and story coherency.

I entirely disagree. I think a monster should do things that make it interesting and worthwhile using. I also entirely disagree with you that the doppleganger doesn't function logically for what it does. Perhaps by changing into its opponent it begins to learn to perfectly mimic everything about them, where old (and deep) battle wounds are or any number of explanations for stabbing you even more viciously. The point is that fluffy monsters that fail to accomplish their mechanics are infinitely worse than monsters that actually do what they are supposed to. 4E is filled with monsters that have tons of great lore and similar, with such terrible mechanics to support them none of that matters. Take numerous old solos for example, like the Purple Worm or Dracolich. Having solid mechanics and actually being a threat in game is more important overall. The new Dracolich is nobodies sad, pathetic free experience chump for example.

 

[Klaus]

I'd much rather have monsters powers be imposing but potentially thwartable and use mechanics that evocative of something. "I'm still next to you so you take an extra 6d8 damage" is pretty bland. I think monsters should be able to operate effectively, but really the whole POINT of monsters is they do strange things that nobody else can do. This particular monster's 'shtick' just seems to be implemented in a way that is rather characterless. Yes, you can use tactics to overcome it, and in fact said tactics are pretty straightforward, it is just hard to relate the extra damage it does to what it is doing in terms of the game world. Why does looking like your opponent grant you a whole bunch of extra damage?

I don't hate, I'm just not really impressed by it. Monsters need both mechanical and story coherency. This is one area where the designers still haven't entirely figured it out. The mechanical box things are put into with 4e is pretty tight. In the old days you could just describe the way the monster worked and not worry about it. By codifying everything 4e makes play easy, but it makes unusual monsters well, just not that unusual anymore. I mean all sorts of crazy stuff COULD be done, but then you'd need a page long stat block full of rules to weld it into the system (and doubtless said rules would create more questions than answers, as the Gelatinous Cube amply demonstrates).

Not that any of that really holds ME back as a DM, but it does seem to crimp some people's style a bit.

Note how the target is "immobilized", in addition to taking the extra damage. This is to represent the "what the hell?!?" moment a character experiences upon seeing his enemy become his duplicate.

 

[LostSoul]

It's just like a sneak attack. The difference is that the doppelganger has perfected its sneak attack only against replicas instead of the general CA state. I would prefer it if the doppelganger grabbed the target, but grab sucks...

 

[Funkenstein23]

I totally love this thing! Looks like a real challenge and it accomplishes its shtick quite well from a mechanics perspective. I'm definetly looking forward to the Monster Vault.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

I think a monster should do things that make it interesting and worthwhile using.

As do I. However, I believe they should make the monster do things that are interesting and worthwhile *and* give us plausible narration for those things.

All I want is for them to give me an "official" description of what's going on that I can offer to my players. Based on the preview text, that doesn't appear to be the case for the doppelganger.

 

[Piratecat]

I have this image of the doppelganger taking someone's image, and then for a few shimmering seconds knowing exactly where every one of their weak points and internal organs are. Striking during that period does massive damage.