Dragon Power

[Trainz]

I know that the grapple situations have been discussed to death on EN World, and that some of you must roll your eyes when looking at a thread with the word grapple in it. That said...

In our last game session, we suffered a near-TPK with a CR 10 Blue Dragon (we are 3 L 13 PC's). The two Fighters are dead and the Cleric fled. Now we where true resurrected, and have to go attack the beast again to retreive our gear (Diablo anyone ?).

The members of B.A.D.D. must be proud reading this post

The main problem was the Dragon's Bite and Claws that do an automatic grapple when they hit. He bit me, and I was stuck in his mouth, and the archer was grabbed in a claw. The dragon was aiming at the cleric with the archer in his paw in the line of fire, and boom, two guys with no save, and everybody affected by the breath weapon.

I don't have a problem with this, it is plainly described in the MM. What I would like you guys to tell me, is clearly describe the grapple mechanics IN THIS SITUATION to make sure we didn't leave anything out that could have prevented this disaster...

For example, did the dragon still threatened areas around him ? Was I prevented from attacking the dragon even if I was in his mouth (the picture on page 124 of the first printing PH suggests no...) ? When making opposed attack rolls to break the grapple, I can make 3 attacks (at -5 after the first), does the dragon also rolls 3 opposed rolls (in is there a -5 after the first) ?

I would really like many clarifications on all these and any more that pops in your mind, because this situations often happen with many monsters (NOT only Dragons )

 

[Stalker0]

so what's the question? You mentioned grapple and fighting a dragon. You want advice about how to beat it? You think your DM did a grapple thing wrong?

 

[The Souljourner]

Here's the deal - grapple checks are set such that they assume the creature is using all its limbs to focus on grappling you. If it doesn't, it gets a -20 to its grapple check. That makes a HUGE difference. So, once it grappled you and your friend, on your turn you get to make a grapple check to get out of it. It has to either drop one of you to maintain a normal grapple check on the other one, or it has to take -20 on both grapple checks.

Now, as for the breath weapon - did you know about the dragon ahead of time? Because that cleric should have had you all set up with Resist Elements (or whatever the 12/ level one is). That should suck up at least two if not three of the dragon's breath weapons.

Also, if the dragon wants to move one of you into a line with its mouth and the cleric, it has to make a strength check... I'm not sure exactly on the logistics, but I remember reading it somewhere... anyone else have the actual rules for it?

Somewhere online there is a complete grapple rulesheet that is a lot of help. If I find it I'll post the link.

-The Souljourner

 

[Trainz]

Somewhere online there is a complete grapple rulesheet that is a lot of help. If I find it I'll post the link.

Oh, I use it. It is here:

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/grappling.html

It did help somewhat, but couldn't answer all my questions.

 

[Trainz]

Here's the deal - grapple checks are set such that they assume the creature is using all its limbs to focus on grappling you. If it doesn't, it gets a -20 to its grapple check. That makes a HUGE difference. So, once it grappled you and your friend, on your turn you get to make a grapple check to get out of it. It has to either drop one of you to maintain a normal grapple check on the other one, or it has to take -20 on both grapple checks.

I could see that being realistic with two med. size critters grappling, but the dragon with a PC in his mouth doesn't do much but simply hold it's jaws shut and not using it's bite attack. Any rules quotes to clarify this ?

 

[Alejandro]

Hmm, a few things sound iffy about that combat.

Since this was a CR 10 blue dragon, it was most likely a young adult blue dragon. Being Large, it is indeed able to use its Improved Grab ability against you if it had the Snatch feat.

However, it must take a -20 to its grapple check if it wanted to only grab you with its bite, and would also be at another -20 when it grabbed the archer. It does not automatically grapple you.

When grappled, you can attempt to break the hold (it still has a -20 to its checks), escape from the grapple, or attack it with a light weapon. Your grapple checks suffer the iterative attack penalties, but its oppose grapple checks only suffer the -20, not the iterative penalties.

When it had you and the archer, you're all considered to be in the same area. It could have breathed on itself to damage you with no save and the archer with a Reflex save, or could have breathed at the cleric to damage you with no save and the cleric with a Reflex save, but by the rules could not have "lined up" the archer between its mouth and the cleric. In no case would the archer have been denied a save, since the archer was not Snatched by the bite.

I think your DM was just having a bit too much fun, at your expense.

 

[Trainz]

However, it must take a -20 to its grapple check if it wanted to only grab you with its bite, and would also be at another -20 when it grabbed the archer. It does not automatically grapple you.

When grappled, you can attempt to break the hold (it still has a -20 to its checks), escape from the grapple, or attack it with a light weapon. Your grapple checks suffer the iterative attack penalties, but its oppose grapple checks only suffer the -20, not the iterative penalties.

Where is it in the books that -20 (page please) ? And what do you mean by iterative penalties ?

I think your DM was just having a bit too much fun, at your expense.

Oh... now that's an understatement.

 

[mmu1]

By "iterative penalties" he means the -5 penalty to BAB for each additional attack, since trying to break grapple counts as an attack.

And the -20 penalty thing is on p.9 of the Monster Manual, in the Improved Grab section.

Monsters can only grapple with a "body part" (mouth, claw, single tentacle, etc.) and still retain the ability to attack with other limbs if they make a grapple check at -20. Otherwise, they loose all the additional attacks, can't threaten an area, and so on.

In case of a dragon, think of it as the price for making sure the fighter you're holding in your jaws doesn't poke a dagger into your eye and twirl it around...

I'd say your DM just slaughtered a couple of characters because he's grossly incompetent...

 

[Trainz]

Thanks for the clarifications mmu1. I really appreciate it.

I'd say your DM just slaughtered a couple of characters because he's grossly incompetent...

*ROFL*

Heh...

Now, in his defense, I have to admit that I wasn't aware of those rules either. Hell, with 3rd Ed, it takes months of studies to grasp every little subtlety of the system.

He does have a tendency to have an "us" v.s. "them" attitude with the players sometimes, but he's an overall great DM.

He's my best friend ! I love him !

Now, if I can get my accountant of a wife to play in our games, maybe it will be simpler.... right.

 

[kreynolds]

He does have a tendency to have an "us" v.s. "them" attitude with the players sometimes, but he's an overall great DM.

I kinda have the same attitude. Kinda. Basically, I give my games a complete life of their own. Most of the NPCs my players meet have their own lives, with their own goals and agendas. Where the players fit in is up to them. If an adventure gets skipped, it continues in the background, whether it be good or bad. I inserted a hook in one of my games for The Demon God's Fane and it got passed over, not by mistake mind you, but quite deliberately. Currently, the plague is still expanding, and it's only gonna get worse. Should be interesting.

He's my best friend ! I love him !

So, what non-USA country are you from?