Dragonlance Dragonlance "Reimagined".

[Alzrius]

I think defending mass murder- and make no mistake, that's the Cataclysm in a nutshell- as "good" is always going to fail. If you find that mass murder is somewhere in the grey area, well, we disagree about the borders of that grey.

I think the issue isn't so much about real-world religion as it is about older belief systems (which informed a lot of classical literature, mythology, and yes, religions) with regard to collective punishments being handed down onto an entire group for the failure of one individual (usually a leader of some sort). You don't have to look very hard to find that particular idea in numerous tales from antiquity (and more recently, for that matter).

Now, that conflicts drastically with contemporary attitudes, which strongly emphasize personalism with regards to moral culpability. And since alignment presents itself as the objective presence of Good and Evil, it's easy to see why some people reject any presentation of "absolute Good" that fails to adhere to the present understanding of morality.

That said, I think there's room to understand and enjoy a game setting where an older, alternative definition of Goodness (even in an absolute sense) is utilized, without any presumption that this necessarily means that the people who enjoy that are legitimately rejecting contemporary values.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Please keep real-world religion out of the discussion.

Hickman lietrally based parts of Krynns religions and its rebirth etc on his own religion.

But whatever makes it easier for you, i shall not bring it up again.

 

[Zardnaar]

I feel like there's a vast, airy gulf between 'people don't need to be completely black and white' and 'sometimes people just commit atrocities, but that's okay; they're still good people if they can justify it'.

Depends on the situation.

Bomber crews in WW2 for example come to mind. Ideal world shouldn't happen. But it's not an ideal world.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Yeah, we're not going to get into the real world issue of the responsibilities of soldier in armies. It's a question that's being hotly debated by far more qualified individuals then we who argue about elf games.

I kind of doubt any of those soldiers had selectively limited omnipotence.

 

[Faolyn]

Couldn't the gods have maybe, I dunno, denied them their spells? The answer to this in 1e and 2e, at the very least, is absolutely yes. At the worst, you could argue that these guys might have retained access to lower level spells only.

This exactly. According to the DL wiki, the gods sent signs--plague of insects, rivers of blood type of signs. All of which were misinterpreted as being signs that the gods of evil wanted to stop the Kingpriest, which made him think that he was on the right track and scaring them.

But this is D&D. His gods should have simply yanked all of his spells away (barring maybe those low-level spells that stem from faith alone, although I don't know if that was a thing in 1e) and maybe sent literal visions of his gods saying NO, BAD KINGPRIEST, NO ULTIMATE POWER FOR YOU.

That, right there, would be enough to make the gods of Good remain good. If the kingpriest then went on to commit horrible acts for his cause, to work around his loss of power by learning forbidden wizard magic, raising a non-spellcasting army, and other such things, then we can maybe look at throwing a mountain (at his army, not at an empire filled with innocent people).

 

[Faolyn]

What im saying is, the way D&D alignment works, he wasnt evil. He was DOING evil, but as they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Evil in D&D is selfish and self-serving. From Lawful to Neutral to Chaotic. He wasn't self-serving. He honestly believed he was helping the world at large. You can be a good person and still do bad things especially for the wrong reasons. That's even true in real life.

I would say that in D&D, he would still be evil. In fact, with that mentality, he would work perfectly as a Ravenloft darklord. Elana Faithhold isn't much different--she performs evil acts for the greater good as well, and she's a darklord.

At the very least, if he performed that many evil acts, then no matter his intentions, he would no longer be good. At best, he'd be neutral.

 

[Zardnaar]

I would say that in D&D, he would still be evil. In fact, with that mentality, he would work perfectly as a Ravenloft darklord. Elana Faithhold isn't much different--she performs evil acts for the greater good as well, and she's a darklord.

At the very least, if he performed that many evil acts, then no matter his intentions, he would no longer be good. At best, he'd be neutral.

The other option is he isn't personally commiting the acts and is unaware if what's going on in his name.

Pride, hubris etc.

People just assume all good aligned folk get along and the other side is evil.

What is actually evil is also very subjective. Eg killing full stop vs personal defense vs defending your country (in an invasion).

Or why villians are bwa ha ha I'm evil to make it clear who's bad. There's a lot of grey.

Cataclysm is an old trope about divine retribution. We've had about 3000 years of that at least.

 

[Faolyn]

I suppose it’s easier on the imagination when you’ve been raised as a part of a major religion that has a “good god” who did something similar when the whole world was considered corrupted beyond saving.

Falling into that whole “the gods know better than us mere mortals can comprehend.”

They have stats, class levels, and alignments, and they sometimes manifest. They are very comprehendable to mortals--specifically, those mortals who are running and playing the game or reading the books, who are the only ones who count in this case. If the gods are to be truly mysterious, then they need to be done Eberron-style. No alignment. Anyone can get and keep cleric abilities, regardless of their actions. They don't manifest.

And remember that this isn't a real-world religion. This is a fictional religion written by people who are trying to cram real-world religious tropes into a fictional setting that also says that a paladin who hangs around a thief could lose their paladin-hood, because the paladin was allowing non-LG actions to take place.

 

[Faolyn]

The other option is he isn't personally commiting the acts and is unaware if what's going on in his name.

According to the wiki, he ordered attacks on various (good-aligned) temples, re-instituted slavery (of worshipers of neutral and evil gods), and used telepaths to read peoples' minds to make sure they weren't doing evil (and this somehow caused the deaths of "many innocent people"). I'd say he knew what was going on.

But the problem isn't whether or not the kingpriest was evil, knowingly evil, or just doing evil in the name of good. The problem is that the setting insists on a balance between Good and Evil and says that genocide is an acceptable act by deities of Goodness.

Pride, hubris etc.

People just assume all good aligned folk get along and the other side is evil.

I don't assume that. But I assume that good-aligned folk have very similar goals, even if their approaches are different, and that most of the problems between good people is in implementing those approaches.

 

[Zardnaar]

According to the wiki, he ordered attacks on various (good-aligned) temples, re-instituted slavery (of worshipers of neutral and evil gods), and used telepaths to read peoples' minds to make sure they weren't doing evil (and this somehow caused the deaths of "many innocent people"). I'd say he knew what was going on.

But the problem isn't whether or not the kingpriest was evil, knowingly evil, or just doing evil in the name of good. The problem is that the setting insists on a balance between Good and Evil and says that genocide is an acceptable act by deities of Goodness.


I don't assume that. But I assume that good-aligned folk have very similar goals, even if their approaches are different, and that most of the problems between good people is in implementing those approaches.

Genocide does happen in Sci Fi and fantasy normally when said race is irredeemabley evil, xenophobic or aggressive usually all three.

Hence why big bads often get imprisoned. Then escape.