Draw Steel News

[Nikosandros]

Right. Which is a thing, but these games (Daggerheart/Draw Steel) are already pretty far from my comfort zone, I dont think I need 2.

That's fair, I wasn't trying to sell you the game

 

[overgeeked]

OK.

Granted I have yet to receive my Daggerheart book (Tuesday) so have not given it a read, but other than maybe the forced movement and grid focus, that seems a lot like what Daggerheart is being sold like.

Yeah. the biggest differences I'm seeing talked about are crunch and story/fiction mechanics. If you take 5E as a baseline of 50/50, Daggerheart is 75/25 with a push towards lighter story mechanics and Draw Steel is 25/75 with a push towards heavier combat-focused mechanics.

Some quick examples...

Daggerheart has hope/fear along with success/failure. Draw Steel has fail, succeed at cost, succeed.

Daggerheart has to-hit rolls. Draw Steel does not.

The both have good, robust downtime systems. Daggerheart is lighter with simple clocks, Draw Steel is more crunchy with rolls eating away at a HP bar and events interspersed.

Draw Steel has two pages of rules on forced movement. Daggerheart does not. There are a few abilities that force movement, but it doesn't have its own section in the book.

Draw Steel is explicitly a gridded maps and minis game. Daggerheart uses loose range bands and precise distances are an optional rule.

 

[SteveC]

Interesting. So what exactly would I as a prospective buyer be looking at Draw Steel for?

I think people have already done a good job describing the game, but I really am enjoying DaggerHeart, and I am enjoying reading Draw Steel. The difference between the two is that Draw Steel is much crunchier and grid/minis game. I loved 4E, and I think of Draw Steel as developing along those lines. I'd be playing 4E today if it had a robust VTT system available. Draw Steel feels like it's going to have that, but also take some of the advances in game design since 4E came out.

I think you watch Knights of Last Call, so you can go watch two(!!) six hour plus streams on Draw Steel. It's kind of crazy how much effort Derik put into discussing the game. The key is, what kind of game do you like? For a crunchy, tactical game ... I think this is a great choice. If that's not what you want, perhaps go with another system.

 

[Elvish Lore]

I think you watch Knights of Last Call, so you can go watch two(!!) six hour plus streams on Draw Steel. It's kind of crazy how much effort Derik put into discussing the game. The key is, what kind of game do you like? For a crunchy, tactical game ... I think this is a great choice. If that's not what you want, perhaps go with another system.

Not to be pedantic, but more as a warning to others... Derik's second live-stream on Draw Steel was nearly 8 hours.

 

[Elvish Lore]

Ok, so I saw both eps of the Delian Tomb actual play. A level one fight between 5 PCs vs... 8 (?) minions and 2 (?) captains was close to 2 hours. "?" noted because I'm not positive of the numbers.

And it wasn't like the players didn't know the rules. The GM was the lead designer, 3 players co-designers and two of them were employees who were part of the design process every step of the way.

That combat length is ridiculous excessive even for me.

Like, I think DS will have its fans because well-designed rules-heavy will appeal to some folk (and it does feel well designed, all the parts seem really well integrated with each other) but I struggle to see how a game this fiddly will engage most of the rpg hobby.

I'm glad it exists but beyond this year's release buzz, I don't see it having much traction in the marketplace.

 

[SteveC]

Not to be pedantic, but more as a warning to others... Derik's second live-stream on Draw Steel was nearly 8 hours.

Well I was thinking that the six plus included it, but you're correct. You'll learn more about the game than from anywhere else. These streams were so long that I was only able to watch about half of one before finishing my work. I am in a rotation to patch servers that I control every few months, and this is a lot of waiting, so I get to watch videos while waiting for the blue bar to finish up. I wasn't even half done with the first one when I finished the task! So yes, these are a time investment. And I also agree with your points that this may be too much crunch for a lot of people, but I'm still going to give it a go and attempt to prove that wrong.

 

[Enrahim]

Yeah. the biggest differences I'm seeing talked about are crunch and story/fiction mechanics. If you take 5E as a baseline of 50/50, Daggerheart is 75/25 with a push towards lighter story mechanics and Draw Steel is 25/75 with a push towards heavier combat-focused mechanics.

I would actually contest it might be opposite. The daggerheart combat mechanics seem to me straight out baroque when compared with draw steel. In daggerheart we have lots of dices of all types, 4 currencies to balance and a weapons table that almost make T&T blush. The out of combat "mechanics" of daggerheart seem to reduce to "please spend fear to do mean things you have to come up with yourself".

Meanwhile draw steel have cut down to one roll per turn (not counting triggers), that is always 2d10 - minions being even more simplified. There are still 3 currencies, but one trivially feeds to another. On the other hand we get hard rules for negotiation and crafting. The downtime system also is much more fleshed out to the point that I get Ars Magica vibes.

 

[Enrahim]

OK.

Granted I have yet to receive my Daggerheart book (Tuesday) so have not given it a read, but other than maybe the forced movement and grid focus, that seems a lot like what Daggerheart is being sold like.

Don't be deceived about "movement and grid". That might sound like boring spreadsheet stuff, but it actually is essential for the cinematography. There are lots of abilities that moves people around, but this is not (only) for tactical placement.

The forced movement rules turns your foes into weapons you can weird against their allies, and even walls become dangerous terrain due to the damage you get when slamming into it. There are also abilities manipulating height of the terrain, giving platforms that can be climed for higher ground edge, or pits that foes can be pushed into even if the GM hasn't done the work of making a strongly featured battlemap in advance. The grid and movement is there to create cinematic moments.

Daggerheart has tactics, fantasy and heroics. The cinematography seem different though. While Draw Steel seem to be aiming for a high octane action blockbuster, Daggerheart seem to be going for more for a suspensfull triller feel.

The games have very clearly very many of the same fundamental design building blocks. Both have lots of character options, a handfull of abilities that is fueled by meta currency you gain regularly, has some mechanisms to limit character death, and the single encounter adventuring day, alongside a rich beastery with interesting abilities, and large loot tables. But I get the impression that these surface similarities might be deceiving, and that these two games are strongly tuned toward two very different kinds of game experiences.

For one thing I think Draw Steel will feel more like an optimalisation puzzle where you try to get as many victories as possible before resting. Meanwhile Daggerheart seem to be more tuned toward creating situations where the player need to prioritise what to do with limited resources. Draw Steel is also more heavy handed with abstractions (wealth, equipment and only 3 difficulty classes for instance) which seem to make for a somewhat more fast paced game.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I would actually contest it might be opposite. The daggerheart combat mechanics seem to me straight out baroque when compared with draw steel. In daggerheart we have lots of dices of all types, 4 currencies to balance and a weapons table that almost make T&T blush.

Meanwhile the damage rolls are familiar to anyone has played D&D and the weapons just have a stat, a number of hands, a damage expression, and a trait.

By contrast Draw Steel to pick a weapon you need a kit. Which has a stamina bonus, a stability bonus, a speed bonus, three damage bonuses, a distance bonus, a disengage bonus, and a signature ability locked to two or three stats with multiple tiers, and a rider.

I'm not critiquing Draw Steel here; this is one of the parts I like. But the idea that Draw Steel's weapon mechanics are simpler than Daggerheart is one I find confusing.

The out of combat "mechanics" of daggerheart seem to reduce to "please spend fear to do mean things you have to come up with yourself".

I guess you missed the environments and social monsters - and the suggested moves.

 

[CommodoreKong]

Ok, so I saw both eps of the Delian Tomb actual play. A level one fight between 5 PCs vs... 8 (?) minions and 2 (?) captains was close to 2 hours. "?" noted because I'm not positive of the numbers.

And it wasn't like the players didn't know the rules. The GM was the lead designer, 3 players co-designers and two of them were employees who were part of the design process every step of the way.

That combat length is ridiculous excessive even for me.

Like, I think DS will have its fans because well-designed rules-heavy will appeal to some folk (and it does feel well designed, all the parts seem really well integrated with each other) but I struggle to see how a game this fiddly will engage most of the rpg hobby.

I'm glad it exists but beyond this year's release buzz, I don't see it having much traction in the marketplace.

I feel like Draw Steel is a game you almost need to play in a VTT to speed things up and help keep track of all the little rules like Pathfinder 2e.