Drow - good for anything?

[irdeggman]

I dont deny they make ok rogues, but the HD and lack of con make them even more fragile than a normal rogue, who is pretty fragile to start. Further, using darkness gives your enemies concealment against you, too, so you can no longer sneak attack.

Which is why Warlock is an even better class match for a drow.

Take Devil's Sight Least Invocation (see normally in darkness and magical darkness) and combine that with their Darkness Spell-like ability. They get concealment and don't suffer the penalties.

Eldritch Blast is a ranged touch attack - so benefits them better since Dex has a greater add on then BAB (warlocks have an avg BAB).

Cha is the base ability for their Sp-like abilities (warlock that is)

And for UMD (their major skill focus)

At higher levels they can even create magic items without knowing the specific spells via using UMD.

Also, IMO, theme-wise they fit the iconic drow pretty well too.


They would end up with DR and SR as they progress in class levels.

 

[Seeten]

The point was to show Darklone that the Drow rogue would not suffer a flat -2 to all skills; a point worth making, I think.

Drow Rogue Skills, Standard Array stats(10,16,10,17,8,15) ECL 5

Skill points:66

Bluff 6 +2 = 8
Disable Device 6 +3 = 9
Disguise 6 +2 = 8
Escape Artist 6 +3 = 9
Open Lock 6 +3 = 9
Sleight of Hand 6 +3 = 9
Move Silently 6 +3 = 9
Hide 6 +3 = 9
Spot 6 -1 = 5
Listen 6 -1 = 5
Tumble 6 +3 = 9

HP: 3d6 (13)

2d6 sneak attack

Human Rogue, Standard Array(10, 14, 12, 16, 8, 13) ECL 5

Skill Points: 90

Bluff 8 +1 = 9
Disable Device 8 +3 = 11
Disguise 8 +2 = 10
Escape Artist 8 +2 = 10
Open Lock 8 +3 = 11
Sleight of Hand 8 +2 = 10
Move Silently 8 +2 = 10
Hide 8 +2 = 10
Spot 8 -1 = 7
Listen 8 -1 = 7
Tumble 8 +2 = 10
Intimidate 2 +1 = 3

HD: 5d6+5(25)

3d6 Sneak

Not to be disingenous, but I know which of these lists looks better to me. Yes, the drow gets a +1 int next level, or a +1 to a stat, anyway, and yes, he has SR(not that as a rogue, I really am looking for SR) but even misspending my skill points in this fashion, I see a difference. Look at the hp. Its laughable. A Cr 1 Orc can kill you in a single swing without raging.

If the human spends his skill points wisely, going for synergies, he has an even bigger leg up in reality.

I wouldnt want to be the target of a spell with 13 hp, or, with 25 hp, so I think I'd concentrate on hiding and moving silently so I didnt get targetted.

 

[Seeten]

Which is why Warlock is an even better class match for a drow.

Take Devil's Sight Least Invocation (see normally in darkness and magical darkness) and combine that with their Darkness Spell-like ability. They get concealment and don't suffer the penalties.

Eldritch Blast is a ranged touch attack - so benefits them better since Dex has a greater add on then BAB (warlocks have an avg BAB).

Cha is the base ability for their Sp-like abilities (warlock that is)

And for UMD (their major skill focus)

At higher levels they can even create magic items without knowing the specific spells via using UMD.

Also, IMO, theme-wise they fit the iconic drow pretty well too.


They would end up with DR and SR as they progress in class levels.

The drow darkness SLA is 1/day. As a warlock, you'll need more mileage out of Devil's Sight than that, I'd wager. You might consider picking up both, but thats a huge invocation investment for a paltry %20 miss chance, and considering you start 2 levels behind other Warlocks, I sure wouldnt waste my invocations that way.

 

[Klaus]

A drow warlock is better served by focusing on the eldritch blast and UMD side of things. With Eldritch Spear and 120' darkvision, the drow warlock can fire eldritch blasts from 120' away from a position of total darkness (away from most darkvision ranges).

 

[Darklone]

The point was to show Darklone that the Drow rogue would not suffer a flat -2 to all skills; a point worth making, I think.

Aww
Come on, I answered to a post where you said a drow rogue would enjoy to have these bonuses... I merely wanted to point out that it's actually a penalty.

I admit, it's mostly a -1, but yet no advantage for the drow.

 

[Felix]

Seeten:

They are nitpicks, but you neglected to include the Drow's +2 to Spot, Listen; neither rogue has Search, though the Drow has a +2 Int and a +2 racial bonus; the humans' Disguise has an ability mod of +2, and Open Lock an ability mod of +3.

As I said, most skills will only lag behind by a -1 instead of a flat -2. Even Intimidate, which the human now has an extra skill point to buy ranks with and the Drow does not, is only at a +3 compared to the Drow's untrained +2.

Not to be disingenous, but I know which of these lists looks better to me. Yes, the drow gets a +1 int next level, or a +1 to a stat, anyway, and yes, he has SR(not that as a rogue, I really am looking for SR) but even misspending my skill points in this fashion, I see a difference. Look at the hp. Its laughable. A Cr 1 Orc can kill you in a single swing without raging.

Yep. The Drow is going to have to stay away from those Cr 1 Orcs. He's going to have to stay at range. He'd be well advised to operate in the dark, where his 120' darkvision will help.

I wouldnt want to be the target of a spell with 13 hp, or, with 25 hp, so I think I'd concentrate on hiding and moving silently so I didnt get targetted.

I'd rather more than 13 hp too, but in melee you won't last long with 25 hp either; both of them will have to stay back.

And as far as the two of these rogue fighting each other goes, in the dark, the drow wins. In the daytime, the human wins. I'd rather my rogues be better at night operations than daytime ones.

 

[Felix]

I admit, it's mostly a -1, but yet no advantage for the drow.

The one advantage will be Search, and the ability to walk by a concealed door and get a Search check.

This skill point sub-topic derives from the debate over the Drow's ability bonuses being worth a +1 LA; the impact the higher ability scores have upon the skill bonuses serve to lessen the impact of a loss of 1 HD. I'm not trying to prove a wholesale advantage, but that the ability bonuses make the -1 HD less of a disadvantage. The drow should not make up his entire LA simply in skills: he has 120' Darkvision allowing him to Spot further; Darkness to help him flee when he needs to; he has a +1 AC and +1 ranged attack. The drow does have advantages over this human rogue; they simply arn't advantages accross the board. Nor should they be.

(In case anyone is wondering why I mentioned the drow "losing 1 HD", it's because this is assuming that SR is worth the loss of 1 HD; as that HD is accounted for in terms of character power, all that remains to account for is the other lost HD.)

 

[irdeggman]

The drow darkness SLA is 1/day. As a warlock, you'll need more mileage out of Devil's Sight than that, I'd wager. You might consider picking up both, but thats a huge invocation investment for a paltry %20 miss chance, and considering you start 2 levels behind other Warlocks, I sure wouldnt waste my invocations that way.

There is the Hungry Darkness Least invocation which also causes damage as well as providing darkness.

But it seems that you are systematically finding "issues" with anything at all that a drow can do well. It is obviously a basis for your belief here.

I have found in the past that it is best not to argue with someone's beliefs since they are not most likely ingrained deeply and are not really subject to an objective discussion.

 

[Wolfwood2]

Aasimar are a race of good people, who aspire to ideals of good and worship gods, they make great paladins and great clerics. LA justified.

Drow are a race of evil people, who aspire to worship Lolth, and do terrible, dark things with magic, who make terrible mages, and pathetic clerics. LA not justified.

I find this argument to be the most convincing of those that I have seen in this thread.

It's not that the drow need stronger bonuses for their LA, it's that they need different bonuses to make them good at the things they should be good at.

 

[frankthedm]

As Felix wrote above, having a 40% chance of resisting spells in addition to your save is huge.

Actually, you'll want to take note of how many attack spells are circumventing SR.

Now it may have been because PC casters hate having effects saved against and their spells resisted that wotc gave them No SR, No Save Orb spells in splat material, but the NPCs like those too! Couple that with the Sudden Metamagic feats and you have a situation that can spell disaster for a drow PC lacking in the HP department counting on his SR when spells start flying.