Drow - good for anything?

[Seeten]

As written. Remember, there is a Living Eberron right now using Drow, AS WRITTEN as LA +1, and no one is complaining about the imbalance. It WILL overbalance Drow Paladins, but honestly, except for me, who'd play one? For almost every other class/race combo, the Drow is a strong LA +1 and nothing more. It makes them reasonable as Clerics and Wizards, and good as rogues, and it minimizes the atrocious HP issue, 1 HD less is far less deadly than 2.

I think you will find, if you let them in at LA +1, that unless your player tries to break SR, or go with Divine Grace/some other save multiplier, they'll be no problem at all. A Drow Wizard at +1 LA is just perfect, power wise.

EDIT: Also, to be clear, Paladins arent close to the top of the power curve to begin with, so being a "Strong Paladin" isnt exactly like being a Human Cleric with Divine Metamagic, you're still near the lower half of the power curve.

 

[Felix]

If

"SR is unquestionably worth +1 LA"

Then

Dex +2, Con -2, Int +2, Cha +2.
Darkvision 120'
+2 racial Will save vs spells and SLAs and enchantment effects
Dancing Lights, Darkness, Faerie Fire: 1/day
Weapon Proficiencies: Hand Crossbow, Rapier, Shortsword.
Immunity to Sleep and magical sleep effects.
+2 racial bonus to Search, Listen, and Spot.
Automatic Search check if passes within 5' of a secret or concealed door.​

Is worth what?

[Int and Cha] are used for different classes, with the single exception of Rogues, and not all rogues are also faces.

Bards use Dex, Int and Cha, as does the Warmage, if you're using that class.

The Ranger will benefit from Int, though it isn't crucial, and does have Cha-related skills and abilities.

I've never met a Rogue who doesn't want one more skill, and out of Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Intimidate, Perform and Use Magic Device, I'm sure the Rogue will find some use for the +2 Cha.

---

I'm sure people will be happy playing +1 LA Drow. They are not a strong +2 LA race, but that does not mean that they arn't deservedly +2 LA. Like I said:

If your character build takes advantage of [the drow's] abilities.
If your character functions well while acting at a distance from enemy melee combatants.
If the campaign operates such that SR is effective.

Then your Drow will be worth the +2 LA cost associated with it.​

That does not mean that every character concept will result in a strong character. So if your criteria for a reasonable LA is that any class be playable well by the race, then suddenly quite a few races will not be worth their LA, or powerful enough to rate a +0 LA. It's a narrower race than most, certainly more so than the base races, but will manage well if the character sticks to complimenting the Drow's natural abilities.

 

[Darklone]

I've never met a Rogue who doesn't want one more skill, and out of Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Intimidate, Perform and Use Magic Device, I'm sure the Rogue will find some use for the +2 Cha.

Just to mention... that would be a rogue who'se skills are by two lower. One more skill, but all -2?

 

[Seeten]

That does not mean that every character concept will result in a strong character. So if your criteria for a reasonable LA is that any class be playable well by the race, then suddenly quite a few races will not be worth their LA, or powerful enough to rate a +0 LA. It's a narrower race than most, certainly more so than the base races, but will manage well if the character sticks to complimenting the Drow's natural abilities.

Normally, I would agree with you, Felix. For example, Aasimar is worth its +1 LA, and the reason is, Aasimar are iconic Clerics, and Paladins, and everything they have makes them better as both Clerics, and Paladins. They are unquestionably good at being their Iconic classes.

My issue with drow is, they are unquestionably poor at their iconic classes, and good, as is, at weird, other alternative classes that in truth, they shouldnt be so good at. So, to make them acceptable as their iconics, I take the stance I do. Now, in our games, we dont use Drow as written, but Living Eberron does, with a +1 LA, and I've not heard any complaints that they are overpowering the modules. That tells me something. The RPGA is notoriously serious about removing overpowering options, remember.

I dont think we're disagreeing, I just think you are looking at the abilities in isolation, when they need to be looked at as a whole.

Aasimar are a race of good people, who aspire to ideals of good and worship gods, they make great paladins and great clerics. LA justified.

Drow are a race of evil people, who aspire to worship Lolth, and do terrible, dark things with magic, who make terrible mages, and pathetic clerics. LA not justified.

 

[Felix]

Just to mention... that would be a rogue who'se skills are by two lower. One more skill, but all -2?

Except:

Dex skills, which will only be 1 lower.

(Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, Use Rope)​

Int Skills, which will only be 1 lower.

(Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Know (local),​

Cha skills, which will only be 1 lower.

(Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Intimidate, Perform, Use Magic Device)​

Spot, Listen, which will be equal.

Search, which will be +1.​

As it works out, the only skills which will be at -2 are Climb, Jump, Profession, and Sense Motive.

Not as bad as you might think at first, eh?

 

[Seeten]

Wait, who are we comparing them to?

They have equal skill amounts to a human, so they dont get your iconic 1 xtra skill, they have 2 lower dex skills, when compared to an elf, and 2 lower spot, listen, search, and worse everything else, what are we comparing them to, a half-orc?

 

[Fishbone]

Why don't the deep dwarves and duergar band together and kill these pricks already?
I can see it now...
3rd level raging barbarians versus 1d4 and 1d6 candy asses. Yeah, that extra 2d12+6 HP +6 Temporary HP is a huge deal when it comes to battling.
One good solid landed power attack from a greataxe or greatsword should be enough to drop the average Drow caster.
I've said it before and I'll say it again
2 Level Adjustments+No Racial hit dice advancement+Con hit=sucky villain.

 

[szilard]

Unearthed Arcana's LA Buyback just unbalances stuff in the other direction. Its the best we have, but it isnt "good".

What we need is racial levels where you get the special bonuses, with hit dice, in the racial level, and which can be skipped, or not, at your leisure. Arcana Evolved does this very well, the Dracha can gain wings, extra stat boosts, a breath weapon, but if you choose, you can take 20 levels of Wizard instead. Your choice.

For PCs, I just give a level of Commoner along with each +1 LA.

-Stuart

 

[Klaus]

For PCs, I just give a level of Commoner along with each +1 LA.

-Stuart

You. Are. A. Genius!

YOINKED!

Poor BAB, Poor Saves, Poor Skills and d4 HD is better than nothing, and not enough to throw balance into whack!

 

[Felix]

Wait, who are we comparing them to?

The point was to show Darklone that the Drow rogue would not suffer a flat -2 to all skills; a point worth making, I think.