Drow - good for anything?

[Felix]

No SR, No Save Orb spells

Awful, awful spells.

 

[Seeten]

There is the Hungry Darkness Least invocation which also causes damage as well as providing darkness.

But it seems that you are systematically finding "issues" with anything at all that a drow can do well. It is obviously a basis for your belief here.

I have found in the past that it is best not to argue with someone's beliefs since they are not most likely ingrained deeply and are not really subject to an objective discussion.

This is clearly and demonstrably not true, as I have categorically said Drow make excellent Paladins/Blackguards, and very good Hexblades, and with Bo9S, Excellent Crusaders. Their SR works very well with Divine Grace. Thats more of a synergy with SR than with drow themselves, but their cha bonus + their SR means they have outstanding staying power as Paladins.

My beef is that they should NOT be great paladins. I am not claiming +2 to 3 stats and SR isnt worth +2 la, if they were Aasimar bonuses, and Aasimar were supposed to be great paladins but mediocre clerics, I'd say they were well worth +2 LA.

But they suck as Wizards, and they suck as Clerics, and thats my beef. They are worse than humans as multiple other classes. The fact that they will not be laughed off the planet as rogues and warlocks doesnt mean they make GOOD rogues and warlocks, although I will concede Rogue is on my shortlist of classes I'd choose to play were I forced to be a drow.

Again, I have a multitude of posts in this very thread stating that there are classes in which Drow justify their LA. Their iconic classes, sadly, are among their very worst, however.

 

[Votan]

I find this argument to be the most convincing of those that I have seen in this thread.

It's not that the drow need stronger bonuses for their LA, it's that they need different bonuses to make them good at the things they should be good at.

I completely agree with this and it is the heart of some of the problems with the Drow --> they are losuy at what makes them good.


If they are a viable LA +1 race in Living Eberron then this is more evidence that they are borderline. Nobody argues (so far) that Drow is equal to human or dwarf; just that the Drow isn't worth being 2 levels behind.

I also submit that, just like many other abilities are considered in an asymmetrical fashion, the CON penalty is worse in a high LA race (e.g. Drow) than a low LA race (e.g. Elf). Just as the Half Orc balances +2 STR by having -2 INT and -2 CHA, sometimes penalities are worth more or less.

Plus, ability scorse do not trivially reverse and we see assymetic patterns elsewhere. Nobody would allow a Hlaf Orc, as written, except reversing the scores (-2 STR, +2 INT, +2 CHA -- ,edium size and darkvision -- LA +0 == awesome).

High LA creatures are already low in Hit Points so it compounds the penalty (just like the STR bonus is so easily compounded and is balanced by 2 negative scores). This further hurts any analysis of the Drow because the penalty is actually enhanced with the LA.

 

[Votan]

Awful, awful spells.

True, but the Orb spells have also had an impact on races like the Drow. Part of the problem is metagaming -- everybody knows that Drow have spell resistence and few players will choose a spell that can be resisted when they see a Drow.

The other problem is that SR is not what it once was. There are so many ways around it that it no longer provides large benefits (and actually brings disadvantages for helpful spells). It is like spell turning -- once a feared defence and now a bit of a joke trying to find something (anything) that i actually affects (no rays, no area of effect . . .)

 

[Felix]

I completely agree with this and it is the heart of some of the problems with the Drow --> they are losuy at what makes them good.

They are good at sneaking around in the dark and ambushing from a distance. They are still good at this, and most classes can be built to stay at range.

They are lousy at adventuring around on the surface with humans. Which is as it should be.

I also submit that, just like many other abilities are considered in an asymmetrical fashion, the CON penalty is worse in a high LA race (e.g. Drow) than a low LA race (e.g. Elf). Just as the Half Orc balances +2 STR by having -2 INT and -2 CHA, sometimes penalities are worth more or less.

Yes, abilities are situational. An Elf will make a better rogue than a Half-orc. Same with the Drow. Good at somethings, bad at others.

Also, "High LA" is something of a misnomer. There are quite a few races out there with higher LAs. +2 LA is a "High LA" if your character is in the low ECLs. As ECLs increase, +2 LA ceases to be a "High LA".

High LA creatures are already low in Hit Points so it compounds the penalty (just like the STR bonus is so easily compounded and is balanced by 2 negative scores). This further hurts any analysis of the Drow because the penalty is actually enhanced with the LA.

This point, well made, has been addressed several times in the thread.

 

[Felix]

everybody knows that Drow have spell resistence

If players are metagaming this, which they likely would, then the DM is fully within his rights to increase the difficulty of the encounter by other means. It should balance out. Nevertheless, the habit of metagaming should not play much of a part in a discussion on a race's mechanical features.

There are so many ways around [SR]

Besides a spell with "SR: No", what circumventions of SR are there?

 

[wildstarsreach]

Awful, awful spells.

My DM does not allow the orb spells to get around the SR. Change the type from evocation to conjuration to get around SR is a loop hole that he has closed.

 

[frankthedm]

Besides a spell with "SR: No", what circumventions of SR are there?

Not many. It is the fact there are getting to be a fair amount of those spells out these. RThe 3.5 core has two notable ones at low level... Glitterdust {taking sight away on a Will save at second level..bad, bad, bad. [Melphs}Acid arrow is not that bad since the damage is low in compensation and can be washed away. The Orbs though...

 

[wildstarsreach]

As it stands right now, I would have to have an awfully interesting character concept or start the campaign at least 12-15th level to play the drow. I would still like to see what people would be willing to lose to make them the strong LA +1 that a lot see.

After reading much of this list here's the changes that I would make.

Drow males: +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con with option for +2 Cha and -2 Wis
Drow females: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con

Drow males would get the iconic wizard with a LA +1. If they wanted to play a Sorcerer, Then they would have it but sacrificing will for it.

Drow Females aren't necessarily more intellegent than average. But the Charisma adds to their powers as a cleric.

All other abilities I would leave as is.

 

[Seeten]

I think I suggested on Page 4 or 5 that males have +2 int -2 wis, and females have +2 cha and -2 con, although +2 wis and +2 cha with -2 con is also balanced, half-orcs tell us. I'd go with just cha and con, though, for females, so both males and females have balanced ability scores and are +1 la from SR and other abilities.