Drow - good for anything?
- Thread starter WarlockLord
- Start date
Victim
First Post
Seeten said:
Is the drow ultimate magus good for a drow, or good in general? I'm not really concerned about the former; obviously, drow - like pretty much all the other races - will be better at some classes than others. That doesn't mean that mechanical benefits of choosing the drow race are worthy of the cost.
You can have a better Drow Ultimate Magus by being an elf with atypical skin coloration and culture, and without the drow extra "features."
You are indeed right. But the opposition would counter by saying that not many characters reach those levels, so saying they are balanced at or around 20th level doesn't mean much.bestone said:
LA hurts more the larger percentage of ECL it represents. Arguing that the LA penalty is too high will benefit from examinations of low-ECL characters. Arguing the LA penalty is not too high will benefit from examinations of high-ECL characters. One could make a strategic choice in his arguments by choosing an ECL to compare that assists his argument, but if you really do want to thoroughly examine what the LA does to the character, you do need to look at levels both high and low.
When making a choice about your own character, you should keep in mind what levels you expect to play at. If your games don't ever pass 5th level, a +2 LA race is likely a bad choice. If you start at 8th level, a +2 LA race becomes more attractive.
ECL 20 is basically a wash. By that point, the drow has indeed grown into a formidable force. He has caster level 18, as long as he didnt pick up any PrC's that take away a caster level. (Thats a pretty serious issue also, no +9 caster level PrC's, as they make Drow 3 CL's behind), he has 9th level spells, and SR, and 18 HD. He will have nearly equal HP, now, and be within all the same "death ranges" Ie, he won't be in different circumstances if a giant is power attacking, or a str 10 orc is swinging a single sword at him.
The Drow is pretty awesomely powerful when given LA +0, and level 18, 19, 20, as a Wizard, are all pretty much equal. So yes, by this time, it does equal out. But, unless the DM is asking you to roll up level 20 characters, this isn't relevant. You have to play thru the levels where you have 5 hp as a level 1 mage, while the rest of the party has 15, 25, and 40 hp. You have to escape using mage armor and grease when other mages are webbing, and false lifing. (Is that a word?) When you just get web, they are casting fireball. These are really huge deals.
At level 16, even, they are casting Horrid wilting, while you are still on finger of death. Its a long road to hoe, to get to ECL 19, where you get your 9th level spells, and really, most campaigns dont make ECL 19, and those that do, few carry on to Epic, so you are just about to retire...just as you reach your moment.
As I say, Paladins, and Blackguards, and probably Hexblades, are actually pretty good as Drow. But that isnt iconic, and I dont think its intentional. Its a side effect of the slapdash abilities they get.
The problem is the SR. It causes a +1 LA adjustment by itself, its iconic, and thus, hard to remove, and it doesnt help the iconic classes much at all. It does buff the defensive classes, like Paladin, greatly. Iconic characters and Favored Classes are supposed to be the ones you balance for, though, and Wizards, and Clerics, get almost ALL their power from caster level. Clerics, even more than wizards, are boned as Dark Elves, as they get no wis bonus to help their DC's out, and lose 2 caster levels to boot. At least their Hit die is a touch bigger to help with the hp pool, but its still meager, and they are still much worse as clerics than most other races.
Their Ability scores are another problem. They have 3 bonuses and 1 penalty, but the penalty compounds their hit die loss. This causes them to be hugely flawed as an arcane caster for a very very long time. The bonuses are on mostly disparate abilities that only rogues use all 3 of, and rogues cant afford the terrible hit die and con penalty. To wit:
Wizard: +2 int is great. +2 dex...it helps, but I'd rather pump con, and I'd rather get the +1 LA back. +2 cha...cha is a dump stat for wizards. -2 con is just horrifying. If we had a choice, we'd +2 the con, and -2 dex, but thats not drowish, unfortunately.
Cleric: +2 int is useless, and in fact, many clerics use int as a dump stat. +2 dex is useless, you can wear full plate. -2 con hurts, as it always does. +2 cha is nice, especially if you go for divine feats, but again, thats 1/3 in buffed stats you truly care about, and 1/3 in painful hurt for losing con
Fighter: +2 int...dump stat, +2 dex...full plate, +2 cha...dump stat. -2 con...ouch. Just awful. And 2 less HD. Wow.
Barbarian. See Fighter.
Rogue: +2 int gives more skills, and improves many important skills. +2 Dex is important for everything. +2 cha allows pumping cha and going face, lots of awesome face skills as rogue. -2 con hurts a lot, as does 2 less HD.
Paladin: +2 int is a dump stat. +2 dex ... fullplate. +2 cha is very important, divine feats make paladins much more dangerous, and it adds to divine grace. SR adds to +2 will saves, and divine grace, to make the paladin virtually impossible to cast spells on. with high HD, and likely a good con, early levels are still tough, but if he makes it to ECL 6, he's already moving into his own. Finally a class that really makes use of being drow...
This is why I have an issue with the drow as written.
So, what do you do?
My fix. +2 int for males. -2 wisdom. +2 cha for females. -2 con. SR. LA +1.
This means we get 1 ability score with a bonus, not 3. Each gender has a penalty to a stat. The arcane casters lose the con penalty. 1 la is much better for spellcasters than 2. It fixes most of the paladin problem, but I'd keep an eye on it, just in case.
The Drow is pretty awesomely powerful when given LA +0, and level 18, 19, 20, as a Wizard, are all pretty much equal. So yes, by this time, it does equal out. But, unless the DM is asking you to roll up level 20 characters, this isn't relevant. You have to play thru the levels where you have 5 hp as a level 1 mage, while the rest of the party has 15, 25, and 40 hp. You have to escape using mage armor and grease when other mages are webbing, and false lifing. (Is that a word?) When you just get web, they are casting fireball. These are really huge deals.
At level 16, even, they are casting Horrid wilting, while you are still on finger of death. Its a long road to hoe, to get to ECL 19, where you get your 9th level spells, and really, most campaigns dont make ECL 19, and those that do, few carry on to Epic, so you are just about to retire...just as you reach your moment.
As I say, Paladins, and Blackguards, and probably Hexblades, are actually pretty good as Drow. But that isnt iconic, and I dont think its intentional. Its a side effect of the slapdash abilities they get.
The problem is the SR. It causes a +1 LA adjustment by itself, its iconic, and thus, hard to remove, and it doesnt help the iconic classes much at all. It does buff the defensive classes, like Paladin, greatly. Iconic characters and Favored Classes are supposed to be the ones you balance for, though, and Wizards, and Clerics, get almost ALL their power from caster level. Clerics, even more than wizards, are boned as Dark Elves, as they get no wis bonus to help their DC's out, and lose 2 caster levels to boot. At least their Hit die is a touch bigger to help with the hp pool, but its still meager, and they are still much worse as clerics than most other races.
Their Ability scores are another problem. They have 3 bonuses and 1 penalty, but the penalty compounds their hit die loss. This causes them to be hugely flawed as an arcane caster for a very very long time. The bonuses are on mostly disparate abilities that only rogues use all 3 of, and rogues cant afford the terrible hit die and con penalty. To wit:
Wizard: +2 int is great. +2 dex...it helps, but I'd rather pump con, and I'd rather get the +1 LA back. +2 cha...cha is a dump stat for wizards. -2 con is just horrifying. If we had a choice, we'd +2 the con, and -2 dex, but thats not drowish, unfortunately.
Cleric: +2 int is useless, and in fact, many clerics use int as a dump stat. +2 dex is useless, you can wear full plate. -2 con hurts, as it always does. +2 cha is nice, especially if you go for divine feats, but again, thats 1/3 in buffed stats you truly care about, and 1/3 in painful hurt for losing con
Fighter: +2 int...dump stat, +2 dex...full plate, +2 cha...dump stat. -2 con...ouch. Just awful. And 2 less HD. Wow.
Barbarian. See Fighter.
Rogue: +2 int gives more skills, and improves many important skills. +2 Dex is important for everything. +2 cha allows pumping cha and going face, lots of awesome face skills as rogue. -2 con hurts a lot, as does 2 less HD.
Paladin: +2 int is a dump stat. +2 dex ... fullplate. +2 cha is very important, divine feats make paladins much more dangerous, and it adds to divine grace. SR adds to +2 will saves, and divine grace, to make the paladin virtually impossible to cast spells on. with high HD, and likely a good con, early levels are still tough, but if he makes it to ECL 6, he's already moving into his own. Finally a class that really makes use of being drow...
This is why I have an issue with the drow as written.
So, what do you do?
My fix. +2 int for males. -2 wisdom. +2 cha for females. -2 con. SR. LA +1.
This means we get 1 ability score with a bonus, not 3. Each gender has a penalty to a stat. The arcane casters lose the con penalty. 1 la is much better for spellcasters than 2. It fixes most of the paladin problem, but I'd keep an eye on it, just in case.
Victim said:Is the drow ultimate magus good for a drow, or good in general? I'm not really concerned about the former; obviously, drow - like pretty much all the other races - will be better at some classes than others. That doesn't mean that mechanical benefits of choosing the drow race are worthy of the cost.
You can have a better Drow Ultimate Magus by being an elf with atypical skin coloration and culture, and without the drow extra "features."
Ultimate Magus is terrible, and so are drow casters.
Darklone said:
Watch this pure pain:
At ECL 9, thats Wizard 3, Psion 3, Cerebremancer 1, you cast level 2 spells as a wizard, level 2 powers as a psion.
At ECL 9!
The human mage is using Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Baleful polymorph...Caster level 9. 5th level spells. You have web and animal affinity. It does not get any worse than this.
Darklone
Registered User
I didn't mean to say it would be strong. 
I'm just looking for possibilities to get some mileage out of the drow bonuses (to Int here) and include Psionic Body to get around the hitpoints problem.
And I'd rather compare it to a human Mystic Theurge at that level. Or even a human cerebremancer. The drow is still weak, lacking offense (well, he can burn all his PP on some low level powers). Yet his defense is looking not too bad in comparison.
And at ECL 10, with level3 powers/spells, the cerebremancer drow starts to shine. Quickened powers can be nicely combined with wizard spells. He's still far from strong, but he's getting a lot better with every level now.
I'm just looking for possibilities to get some mileage out of the drow bonuses (to Int here) and include Psionic Body to get around the hitpoints problem.
And I'd rather compare it to a human Mystic Theurge at that level. Or even a human cerebremancer. The drow is still weak, lacking offense (well, he can burn all his PP on some low level powers). Yet his defense is looking not too bad in comparison.
And at ECL 10, with level3 powers/spells, the cerebremancer drow starts to shine. Quickened powers can be nicely combined with wizard spells. He's still far from strong, but he's getting a lot better with every level now.
wildstarsreach
First Post
Awesome class as I played a Kalashtar to 20th level. This would be a good choice.Darklone said:
wildstarsreach
First Post
Opinion noted. 3 more levels and the drow would then have more staying power.Seeten said:
