D&D (2024) Druid metal armor restriction gone?

[Clint_L]

I always figured the 5e design team tried to balance the druid using the metal restriction to eliminate some of the obvious ways of boosting AC, on the theory that the enormous amount of temp HP granted by wolf shape needed to be offset by making the non-wild-shaped druid easier to hit.

It didn’t work, but I assumed that’s what they tried to do.

It didn't work at certain levels.

If you test survivability of a 2014 moon druid against other types of tanks, it really fluctuates. It's absurd at level 2 for example. Then it declines each level. Then it spikes again when they get elemental forms. Then it declines each level. Then it is just stupidly broken at level 20.

The concept of a tank that relies almost purely on high HP is not inherently bad. I kind of like it, because it's different, and it's fun to take insane amounts of damage and keep standing. It's the execution that is problematic in this case. If there was a proper linear progression, it would work. The latest iteration gives it linear progression, though I haven't tested it to see how it holds up in practice. It'll certainly be much weaker than the current version. I'll post some math later to compare.

 

[Clint_L]

Let's start with level 3, orc test. Both druids will go brown bear. Everyone else will be 2014 versions, using simple subclasses. It is possible to optimize further but we just want to get the basic comparison down. Assuming folks use Lay on Hands, second wind, etc.

2014 Druid: AC 16, 39 HP (effective). Orc Survivability 9 rounds.

2014 Druid: AC 11, 89 HP!!! (effective). Orc survivability 13 rounds.

2014 Raging Barbarian, AC 14, 35 HP. Orc survivability 12 rounds.

2014 Paladin, AC 19, 43 HP (effective). Orc survivability 15 rounds.

2014 Fighter. AC 19, 40 HP (effective). Orc survivability 14 rounds.

Interestingly, the 2014 druid is not an OP tank at level 3 - I thought it would be way ahead, but it is middle of the pack. New druid would be more of an off-tank, as it has roughly 60% the survivability.

That's not the whole story, of course. That raging barbarian would have Orc Damage Per Round of 7.5 (non-reckless, non-frenzy), the paladin and fighter 4.85 (I gave them and the fighter the defence style; this is not counting smites or 2nd wind), both druids 10.85 for as long as they are in wildshape (so roughly 2/3 of the time for the 2014 druid, then it has to resort to druid offence like shillelagh or whatever).

Okay, so the 2024 moon druid actually seems fairly balanced at this level. The druid is significantly less tanky, but hits a lot harder (in this form), plus has the flexibility of wildshape. In this Level 3 test, I think we can say that WotC has done a fair job.

 

[Clint_L]

Let's try level 6 against a bugbear chief. Both druids are going to use...I dunno, giant constrictor snake is probably the best option? Let's say everyone's AC has gone up by 1; barbarian, fighter, paladin are all at 18 strength. I'm not factoring critical hits in here, so the fighter would actually be slightly ahead if we assume a champion, and if the paladin scored a critical and used smite their DPR would go way up. But we are just getting a general baseline. The 2014 druid could also be healing themselves for another 4.5 per round if they want to burn through spell slots; I haven't factored this into either test but it is an option.

2024 Druid: AC 17, 93 HP (effective): survives 9 rounds, DPR 6.5 plus grapple

2014 Druid: AC 12, 158 HP (effective): survives 9 rounds, DPR 6.5 plus grapple

Raging Barbarian: AC 15, 65 HP: survives 10 rounds, DPR 14.3

Paladin: AC 20, 82 HP (effective): survives 14 rounds, DPR 9.35

Fighter: AC 20, 64 HP (effective): survives 11 rounds, DPR 9.35

So here the druid really starts to fall behind. Their survivability is actually a bit more competitive (except for the paladin), but their DPR is miserable. Level 8 will help the 2024 version out a bit when they get primal strike (against bugbear chief that would raise their DPR by about 2). The 2014 druid is similarly mediocre as a tank but won't really get a boost in offence until level 10.

What really strikes me here is that the 2014 moon druid has fallen hard. These middle levels are a real struggle for them as far as trying to use wildshape to be an effective melee combatant. And I don't see them being a ton better for the 2024 version.

 

[Clint_L]

Note that I am really lowballing the offence coming from the paladin, fighter and barbarian in these tests, particularly as they level up, but I am more interested in survivability.

If we go up to level 10, when the 2014 druid's elemental forms come online, their survivability doesn't really improve (because those forms cost 2 wild shapes each), but their melee offence is much stronger, assuming they use fire elemental form. As far as tanking goes, the 2014 moon druid continually declines (relative to other tanks) after level 4 and never really recovers until level 20, when it basically gets infinite HP.

I think the 2024 version as currently proposed is improved design but needs some tweaks to boost its offence a bit.

 

[Clint_L]

Running these numbers also made me realize that the 2024 paladin is still going to be an absolute beast, between weapon masteries and lay on hands becoming a bonus action.

 

[Clint_L]

And that embarrassing moment when you realized that you were posting in the wrong thread. At length. So sorry, guys.

 

[Charlaquin]

And that embarrassing moment when you realized that you were posting in the wrong thread. At length. So sorry, guys.

Interesting stuff though! Thanks for the analysis

 

[mellored]

Their survivability is actually a bit more competitive (except for the paladin), but their DPR is miserable.

This is why you "need" to use moonbeam.
Xd10, with half damage, and based on a normal DC.

 

[Clint_L]

This is why you "need" to use moonbeam.
Xd10, with half damage, and based on a normal DC.

I agree, but I think this is an inelegant solution. I think most folks who roll a moon druid want their character to be able to transform into a beast and wreck face. Basically like in World of Warcraft or the D&D movie. I very strongly think that WotC should figure out a balanced way to give them what they want, and they will have a big win on their hands.

I also think this is why moon druids are currently so popular, as far as druids go, because at low levels they really deliver on this fantasy. When you can transform into a CR1 bear at level 2 - twice! - and soak up heaps of damage while absolutely mauling enemies, it's super fun. It's just not balanced, and it doesn't last as you level up. So WotC needs to figure out how to balance it and scale it. I think they are on the right track but not there yet.

 

[mellored]

I agree, but I think this is an inelegant solution. I think most folks who roll a moon druid want their character to be able to transform into a beast and wreck face. Basically like in World of Warcraft or the D&D movie.

They has a bunch of feedback about being more "moon" based, rather than elemental. So they tried out moonbeam.

We will see if it sticks or not.

I very strongly think that WotC should figure out a balanced way to give them what they want, and they will have a big win on their hands.

As you showed, defenses is fairly balanced now.

To balanced offense, just have a 'spend a spell slot to deal more damage' in some form. (Would be OP if they got to match a Barbarian without expending slots).

So if not moonbeam, then something like elemental weapon, primal smite, haste, or higher CR creature.

Part of the problem is that 1/3 CR falls further behind as you go up.

I.e.
at level 6, your CR is 4 levels lower.
at level 15, your CR is 10 levels lower.

Maybe something like CR 1/3 your level + the spell slot level you expended.

I.e. at level 15, you have CR 5, and expend a 5rd level slot = CR 10