Druids too powerful?

[Oni]

First of all, thats a topic I didn't think I'd ever see.



Second I just wanted to throw in my two cents on wildshape and using animal growth.

Wildshape specifically references polymorph. Polypmorph specifically says casters assumes type. There isn't any allowance for except in the case of such and such, simply the caster takes that type. The spell specifically list animal as a type that can be assumed.

 

[jasamcarl]

My cleric had persistent, but the character was way to powerful (he outdid every other party member - which was kind of the purpose: my party's still stuck in 2e, and thought of clerics as boring healers, and I wanted to show them. Monk with grapple, trip and disarm is next...) so I changed to quicken (you can just change the prefix of the spells and don't have to relearn anything ;-))




First round: Righteous might, quickened divine favor.
Second round: Quickened divine power, full attack.

Righteous might doesn't grant enhancement bonuses, but size bonuses.
And you can delay one round for +14 str, +4 con, bab as fighter, and a nice attack and damage bonus. And don't forget damage increase from new size, and bigger weapons.

Ooops. You're right, my bad. But we are still talking 15th level, and I'm pretty sure that a fighter can duplicate most of that from the word go. Most high-level combats last no more than 3 rounds, and are strewn with insta death effects. If that's the strategy you want to pursue, I think having another fighter would be a better idea.

 

[Thanee]

The big benefit of the high level cleric is, that he can do that, but he can also do a lot of other things. The fighter can do only one.

Bye
Thanee

 

[jasamcarl]

The big benefit of the high level cleric is, that he can do that, but he can also do a lot of other things. The fighter can do only one.

Bye
Thanee

Yeah, but this is a game of specialists, where, if you're second best at something, its rarely worth doing it...

 

[Valiantheart]

WOTC really should have made close quarters fighting a core feat if they were going to do the same with improved grapple.

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, but this is a game of specialists, where, if you're second best at something, its rarely worth doing it...

That rules the fighter out, right?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Storminator]

Ooops. You're right, my bad. But we are still talking 15th level, and I'm pretty sure that a fighter can duplicate most of that from the word go. Most high-level combats last no more than 3 rounds, and are strewn with insta death effects. If that's the strategy you want to pursue, I think having another fighter would be a better idea.

Three rounds is a bit short in my experience. I often see our combats lasting 10 rounds. We do have a lot of PCs and our combats are quite spread out in area, tho.

But your point is still valid; buffing time takes away from whacking time!

PS

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Now that is a feat I think needs some revising...I think the 3.5 team has a better sence of how precious time is than the origional designers...

actually I think there sense of how precious time is just as bad, just in the other direction. 1 min a level for the buffs, hmm that's just as bad if not worse as 1 hour a level just in the other direction. Making a too powerful spell too weak isn't a good fix. Still yes persistent needs a fix. Mine so far has been +2 spell levels jumps time category up 1 stage, max of 1 hour a level. Stages are rounds, minutes, 10 minutes, hours. Not sure how this works with the really dumb stacking metamagic revisions of 3.5.

As for the main post, well honestly at 17th level every singe party member should be able to handle a golem solo. The fighter types heck even before 3.5's DR system I got adamantine weapons just for the hardness, now with the extra DR punching ablity, the avoid hardness ability, and the hardness and HP its a must have feature for all mid to high level fighters.

Also side point dire bears on SM8 list, gah I hate it. The SM lists were anything but overpowered except for the standout celestials which could cast a wide range of cleric spells. The rest were barely worth the spell level they were at and not even close to worth a 1 round spell. Now somehow they managed to make these spells even suckier. Yeah a CR7 monster being summoned by a level 15 caster fear the awesome power of the summon the not even a speed bump monsters.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Ooops. You're right, my bad. But we are still talking 15th level, and I'm pretty sure that a fighter can duplicate most of that from the word go. Most high-level combats last no more than 3 rounds, and are strewn with insta death effects. If that's the strategy you want to pursue, I think having another fighter would be a better idea.

Often, you have to move up to the enemy, and you can do that and still cast those spells, so you really lose only one attack. And don't forget we're talking about +14 STR on a chararcter build that usually has decent strength anyway. The con increase and temporary HP will put you roughly on par with the fighter in that area, too, and the BAB will also be the same. Add the divine favor and you might just outpace him. This leaves that fighter with his feats to outdo the cleric, and while this can give you the edge in melee fighting, the cleric can still keep on casting if he wants to.

Of course, this only works one fight, or very few fights (depending on your spell slots - the combo uses up two 5th and one 8th, after all), while the fighter can just keep on hacking

 

[LuYangShih]

Face it, Fighters are just another NPC class. If you want real power, always go with a caster.