Druids too powerful?

[Pielorinho]

A little dilemma. Seems to be a case for house ruling or waiting for the next PHB errata or FAQ.
Or better: Take the Wild Shape version printed in MotW...

I totally agree that this is a problem. My two suggestions:
-Rule that Wildshape works according to MOTW rules, with the exception that wildshaping into plants does not grant you any of the plant's special qualities (i.e., no fast healing, energy immunities, etc.)
-Rule that in a grapple, size differences provide a +2/-2 benefit instead of a +4/-4 benefit, and that absent improved grab or improved grapple, it requires a standard action to initiate a grapple, making it not such a completely obvious choice for big creatures to do.

Otherwise, druids get one really good, really boring way to end just about any fight vs. a lone, powerful monster.

Daniel
a druid player

 

[Xavim]

Not at all

I think its refreshing to see the druid holding up their own. Sure the grappling is a difficulty, but its one that can be easily countered.

Fighter: Give this guy some STR enhancing magical items, a Spiked Chain and Improved trip and watch that bad boy bear fall. With the increased reach of the chain the Fighter could even do this attack on his attack of opportunity aswell as every single melee attack entitled to him. And do the the Druids reduced AC he could just sit back and (Improved/Greater)Expertise his furry butt to hell. The fight doesn't have to worry about the -10 to his attacks hurting him too much and thus can make the most of that +10 to AC. You have to hit him to grapple him.

Barbarian: Keen Sythe, Rage, STR enhancing items, Improved Critical, Improved Powerattack. This guy suddenly gains the ability to deal over 50 damage in a single blow, forcing your Druid to make saves or suffer death from massive damage.

Clerics: 1 word, harm, metamagiced to hell to overcome SR and saves. If you really want to kill the Druid, add some WIS enhancements into the mix and its a done deal.

Wizards: This should be obvious. In all of my years of playing I have never seen a class that can stand toe-to-toe with a high level wizard in advanced play. They have the ability to cast 2 spells per round with Quicken, and in 3.0 a third with Haste, and all of these spells lead to 1 main advantage, mobility. Can't grapple if you can't touch 'em. Fly, and haste, 2 low spells, render mister Bears improved grabs useless all the while giving the Wizard ample chance to hit them with a few higher level damaging spells. Not to mention the wizard could throw spells like Power Word blind and Stun at your bears, hard to hit what you can't see. Displacement, and Improved Invisibility render attack bonuses irrelevant 1/2 the time.

Then there's always this combination: Polymorph, Tenser's Transformation and Iron body. Suddenly you have a Wizard that rips things apart just as well as your standard fighter with cool ass bonuses to boot.

Not to mention the Wizards Army of Simulectroms all teleporting to the Wizards aid....

Rogue: A good rogue wouldn't find themselves in that situation in the first place and would have snuck attacked your Druid several times before he even knew where he was. The rogue, also has the option of using magical scrolls, combining the Clerics Harm tactic with the Wizards Spectral hand spells to deliever death at a safe (and hidden) distance.

If there is any character class that is over-powered at high levels, its the well prepared Wizard. With enough prep, a single wizard can annialate anything. So I think we can give the Druids their grapples.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

IMO the ability to summon elementals alone makes them worthwhile

I think the problem here is two-fold:

1) Wildshape 3.5 isn't balanced. I use the one from MotW, including the natural attack sequence. Of course, the druid can't use animal growth on himself then.

2) Use of non-core material - it isn't always broken, but too often it stacks with whatever is available.

 

[Thanee]

Summoned Creatures are nigh useless against casters thanks to Protection from Evil, btw.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pbartender]

I was a bit surprised that a level 17 druid can defeat an iron golem so easily by using wild shape and Animal Growth.

What do you think?

According to the SRD, an Iron Golem's Challenge Rating is 13. Your character (and your fellow adventurers also, I'm assuming) is level 17. Using appropriate tactics and resources (ie, your druid and his wildshape ability), that encounter should be a cake walk.

I don't really why you are so surprised that your character single-handedly and easily defeated a creature meant to be a 'moderate challenge' to a party of four characters who are four levels less experienced than he is.

 

[Dark Dragon]

According to the SRD, an Iron Golem's Challenge Rating is 13. Your character (and your fellow adventurers also, I'm assuming) is level 17. Using appropriate tactics and resources (ie, your druid and his wildshape ability), that encounter should be a cake walk.

I don't really why you are so surprised that your character single-handedly and easily defeated a creature meant to be a 'moderate challenge' to a party of four characters who are four levels less experienced than he is.

Sure, for the whole party it was easy to hack that golem into bits. My problem is: the druid could have done it alone as well. Golems are immune to most spells, so the two wizards couldn't harm it. It has DR 15/adamantine, the cleric and the paladin have no adamantine weapons (the cleric has a +3 bastard sword and adds +12 damage per hit, attack bonus is 24/19/14; the paladin wields a holy avenger longsword, dealing 1d8+12 against a neutral creature, attack is 28/23/18), their damage done was almost nothing. If this four PCs would have engaged that golem without the druid, they would have been slaughtered or at least forced to retreat. Seems to be quite bad for a CR 13 encounter.

@ Xavim: Good points, but I could buff that druid as well Granted, in a spellcaster duel, the druid is in trouble unless he has a lot of good luck. Hitting a fighter or barbarian is not a big deal, because AC does not improve with level... My druid is horribly underequipped at level 17 (no magic weapons, vestment of AC +6, large darkwood shield +1 + death ward, ring of protection +2, periapt of wisdom +6, bracers of health +4, ring of counterspells, cloak of resistance +3, wilding clasp, some scrolls, some potions) but that seems to be no big problem thanks to spells and wild shape.

@Thanee: Yeah, it was just one...but I fear there will be more. The DM will surely set up challenging encounters from now on. Otherwise, as Pielorinho said, the druid's tactic will be boring. The silent Dimension Door was the way an enemy wizard used to escaped the grappling druid. Freedom of Movement would also help to avoid being grappled. But it would be boring if each opponent has the option to use a silent DD or FoM (magic item, spell-like ability).

 

[Majere]

Almost as an aside:
I really dont understand all these threads slagging off fighters.
Other classess really do not have the ac and Hp to be tanks, and fighters can do a decent amount of damage witht he right feet tree. I do feel that people who say "Well IfI cast this this and this on my cleric of broken prestige class I beat the fighter" Miss the point that if they cast those spells on the fighter and not themselfs then you would be getting the most from spells.
A level 13 fighter should have somthing along the lines of 27Str (+8) Weapon Specialisation and greater weapon specialisation, and a +3 weapon. So a Well built fighter will be doing d8+15 (+any energy dice)critting on 17-20. Further with decent (+4/+5armor and shield +3/+4 ring) with expertise the figter can get an ac In the 44-45 range (48-50 with haste) which even the bears will struggle to touch, while he can sight the bears ac or 15, power attack for 10, and reall lay the smack down with 3 attacks of d8+25, and with haste he canmove up and make a full attack, with mobility feat his ac will be a mere 38-39 (no expertise here because your power attacking).
Of course this is before bulls strength, enlarge person, stone skin, mage armor, spiked armor,mage armor (for those touch attacks),barkskin, blur/displacement,polymorph (Fire giant or similar) Because you did buff your fighter didnt you ? Im sure there is some "cleric of broken" who can do all this for 4 rounds a day if given 3 roundsprep, and Ill leave that to smackdown threads. But if fighters are given the buffs people love to dump on themselves, they become mean mofos.

 

[Pielorinho]

Fighter: Give this guy some STR enhancing magical items, a Spiked Chain and Improved trip and watch that bad boy bear fall. With the increased reach of the chain the Fighter could even do this attack on his attack of opportunity aswell as every single melee attack entitled to him. And do the the Druids reduced AC he could just sit back and (Improved/Greater)Expertise his furry butt to hell. The fight doesn't have to worry about the -10 to his attacks hurting him too much and thus can make the most of that +10 to AC. You have to hit him to grapple him.

Hmm... possibly. Keep in mind that an animal growthed dire bear has a strength of 39, is size huge, and has four feet, giving it a +26 on its opposed strength check to avoid being tripped (+14 str, +8 size, +4 stable). A medium-sized fighter with a strength of 30 (18+4 level +6 item +2 inherent -- a pretty high str for a 17th-level fighter) and improved trip is going to have a +14 on the roll, making it pretty unlikely that a trip attack will work. Even with a strength of 40 and size large, you're only up to +23 -- the odds are still against you.

And that dire bear will, when attacking the fighter, get a at least +24 to hit (+12 BAB -2 size +14 str) -- probably at least +28, assuming he's got a greater magic fang going, as should every self-respecting druid who fights in wild-shape. Your fighter is going to need to pump his AC up to 39 just in order to give the bear a 50-50 chance of hitting.

And once the bear hits once, the fighter is in trouble: it gets a grapple bonus of +34 (+12 BAB +8 size +14 str), difficult for most fighters to resist.

Awhile ago I ran a few battles of a regular brown bear vs. a sixth-level fighter, starting them at enough range that the fighter could get off two rounds of arrows before the bear closed. The bear won about two-thirds of the time, entirely due to its ability to grapple. Grappling is a truly nasty ability, which imo needs nerfing.

Daniel

 

[Plane Sailing]

Take a fighter level 12 and a druid level 12, both have no friendly wizzie or cleric to buff them, only their own abilities. It is very likely that the druid outmatches the fighter, either by spells or via wild shape (dire bear => improved grab).

The problem with this argument is that it is always made in a vacuum which assumes no magic items, yet both of these characters will have a lot of value in magic items... it is in fact mandatory in D&D (for better or worse). Now a stupid fighter could have ended up with magic armour and a magic sword and nothing else. But pretty much any survivable fighter will have chosen magic to cover his weaknesses as well as augment his strengths. This is very likely to include things for mobility and escapes.

A 12th level wizard with no magic items would trash a 12th rogue with no magic items - but if both have the appropriate value of magic goods, the balance is much more even.

In the "equal fun" balance between Druids and Fighters, the question is also very similar to the one between wizards and fighters. The fighter is equally good for every encounter during the day. The druid can be fantastic in 1-3 encounters, but by the time you get to the 12th encounter that day he might be flagging a bit </hyperbole>. So much depends upon the way that a DM sets up adventures. If there is time to rest and recharge between every adventure... the casters get a huge boost to their power. All of them.

Cheers

 

[Dark Dragon]

Almost as an aside:
I really dont understand all these threads slagging off fighters.
Other classess really do not have the ac and Hp to be tanks, and fighters can do a decent amount of damage witht he right feet tree. I do feel that people who say "Well IfI cast this this and this on my cleric of broken prestige class I beat the fighter" Miss the point that if they cast those spells on the fighter and not themselfs then you would be getting the most from spells.
A level 13 fighter should have somthing along the lines of 27Str (+8) Weapon Specialisation and greater weapon specialisation, and a +3 weapon. So a Well built fighter will be doing d8+15 (+any energy dice)critting on 17-20. Further with decent (+4/+5armor and shield +3/+4 ring) with expertise the figter can get an ac In the 44-45 range (48-50 with haste) which even the bears will struggle to touch, while he can sight the bears ac or 15, power attack for 10, and reall lay the smack down with 3 attacks of d8+25, and with haste he canmove up and make a full attack, with mobility feat his ac will be a mere 38-39 (no expertise here because your power attacking).
Of course this is before bulls strength, enlarge person, stone skin, mage armor, spiked armor,mage armor (for those touch attacks),barkskin, blur/displacement,polymorph (Fire giant or similar) Because you did buff your fighter didnt you ? Im sure there is some "cleric of broken" who can do all this for 4 rounds a day if given 3 roundsprep, and Ill leave that to smackdown threads. But if fighters are given the buffs people love to dump on themselves, they become mean mofos.

I agree on that, and its quite true that the power of a fighter, barabarian, ranger or paladin depends on how good the team work within a party is. But here lies a part of the problem I have: The fighter (and the barbarian too) needs team work, the paladin and the ranger to a lesser degree, to make maximum use of his combat abilities. The druid does not. He can turn into a melee combat machine if needed, heal himself to withstand a tough fight, buff himself with spells, or grapple one or two powerful melee-type opponents to death. As Pielorinho said, grappling is nasty, and that's why the druid can replace a fighter-type when casting Animal Growth on himself. There are a handful spells I consider no-brainers for druids, Greater Magic Fang and Animal Growth are among them.

As a side question: How do you push a level 17 fighter's AC to 48-50 without a friendly spell caster (using only the core books and the items printed therein)?