Druids too powerful?

[Majere]

To refer to some previous comments:
1) Grapple Is a killer. But nothing is stopping you casting polymorph other on the fighter into a firegiant and then buffing him, with his increased BAB he will be far better than the Druid. In the same way a cleric can buff himself to the nine .. or buff the fighter.

2) Animals have truely abysmal ac, sure you look great, until someon has say, haste, and move up to whap you. A level 17 fighter has3 attacks, lets be really mean and make it a fighter with favoureded enemy fighter.. you can pretty much garuntee you just got hit 6 ties, for d6+str+fav enemy+magic+the rest, call it d6+8 per attack, or 6d6+48. Alternately they might just chose to shoot you, also highlighting your week ac.

Saying you are better than a fighter is like pointing out a level 17 mage can cast maze on a fighter and defeat him. While casters have their high level spells they will kick a fighter about, but when your spells are youyou better run fast because the fighter will own your hide.

 

[Dark Dragon]

To refer to some previous comments:
1) Grapple Is a killer. But nothing is stopping you casting polymorph other on the fighter into a firegiant and then buffing him, with his increased BAB he will be far better than the Druid. In the same way a cleric can buff himself to the nine .. or buff the fighter.

Polymorph other is a D&D 3.0 spell. It doesn't exist in 3.5 anymore, AFAIK. Take a fighter level 12 and a druid level 12, both have no friendly wizzie or cleric to buff them, only their own abilities. It is very likely that the druid outmatches the fighter, either by spells or via wild shape (dire bear => improved grab).

2) Animals have truely abysmal ac, sure you look great, until someon has say, haste, and move up to whap you. A level 17 fighter has3 attacks, lets be really mean and make it a fighter with favoureded enemy fighter.. you can pretty much garuntee you just got hit 6 ties, for d6+str+fav enemy+magic+the rest, call it d6+8 per attack, or 6d6+48. Alternately they might just chose to shoot you, also highlighting your week ac.

True. But a grappled fighter may use only light weapons, while our huge unhasted druid hits that fighter with three attacks per round, dealing 8d6+42 damage (to use my example). Odds are more or less even in melee combat. Granted, a WS druid has a bad AC, but he has the possibility to raise it with spells given preparation time or magic equipment (like wildshape armor).

Saying you are better than a fighter is like pointing out a level 17 mage can cast maze on a fighter and defeat him. While casters have their high level spells they will kick a fighter about, but when your spells are youyou better run fast because the fighter will own your hide.

My point is that a druid has the power to replace a fighter in melee combat at medium levels (from level 12 on): He needs only his wild shape ability and one level 5 spell. Fighting many foes is a problem for him, but for a fighter too. I'm not sure if any other spellcasting class is so strong in melee fights.

 

[isoChron]

Hmm, I know a Cleric of Tempus ....
But that aside. I think it's a bad thing to change your type due to a spell. Inconsistencies, as animals with INT>2, are the consequences.
I wonder why the changed that from 3.0 to 3.5.
Wildshape worked great and in no way unbalancing in 3.0 with the version from MotW.
The fighter spends feats and feats to become a more or less good melee fighter but then the druid (or shifter ) steals the show because he can do all this and better.
And low AC is only a problem against lesser critters. High end melee opponents hit you anyway. (Believe me, my char has AC 32 to 40 and it doesn't help him much around level 16.) It's much better to be the first to kill instead of taking the hits.
In my fantasies a level 18 fighter can care for himself without cleric or wizard to support him. In D&D he can't. He always has to do the begging for healing and stoneskin.
Now the druid can do this on his own, the BAB is only slightly lower and he is a full time caster. Hmmmmmm......

BYE

 

[DM2]

I would say that Polymorph does change type; however, the type would be magical beast and not animal. Therefore, you could never use Polymorph/ Wildshape to change to the animal type, unless you polymorphed something already an "animal."

The type would be "magical beast" because any animal with more than a 2 intelligence is a magical beast.

Dave

I don't think that stands up to scrutiny.

Polymorph says you assume the type and subtypes of the form you assume. It doesn't say you assume the type and subtypes of whatever type definition you most closely qualify for based on your stats, abilities, etc....

Otherwise you'd also have major problems with wizards polymorphing into oozes. oozes have no intelligence score whatsoever.

I think it is simplest and best to allow the animal type, and deal with any unbalancing combinations in everyone's personal house rules, if they really feel it necessary.

DM2

 

[Kae'Yoss]

And low AC is only a problem against lesser critters. High end melee opponents hit you anyway. (Believe me, my char has AC 32 to 40 and it doesn't help him much around level 16.)

Where does that leave that greataxe-wielding, high-level barbarian, who sees the animal, suspects a really low AC and power attacks away?

 

[Trepelano]

I don't know if 3.5 changed this...but summoned creatures are not under direct control of the summoner. They are his allies, but he doesn't control them well enough to create specific strategies (unless he can communicate his strategy to them and they understand such things).

My understanding is that the summoned bears are going to fight for the druid - but they make up their own minds about how to best do that (with their given intelligence). Now if the druid can communicate with them - he can give them instructions - but the strategy would need to be simple enough for them to understand.

Of course, one advantage of summoned animals is that they will attack supernatural or magical creatures that a normal animal would not.

Still, all this basically means that the druid will need a few more rounds to put his plan into action (casting a spell to speak with the bears and then taking the time to give them instructions).

 

[nimisgod]

I'm not sure if any other spellcasting class is so strong in melee fights.

The Cleric is pretty good in melee with Righteous Might and other buffs.

A fighter with Close-quarters Combat and Clever Wrestler is pretty good at avoiding being grabbed. But only if he took those feats, of course. Otherwise...

 

[Thanee]

Oh, c'mon, it was just an Iron Golem!

Well, a wizard could do the very same thing with Polymorph/Animal Growth and various buffs, so the druid is hardly broken, just because of that.

The wizard cannot turn into a dire tiger (huge size), tho!

And I would really like to see how the druid is going to defeat a 17th level wizard, unless he's extremely well-prepaired and the wizard is not!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Arcane casters won't last against the druid long (low HP), and escape via spells could be negated by a successful grapple check (see PHB).

What do you mean by that?

AFAIK a silent Dimension Door works just fine!

Bye
Thanee

 

[kigmatzomat]

Where does that leave that greataxe-wielding, high-level barbarian, who sees the animal, suspects a really low AC and power attacks away?

He still hits since the druid adopts the critter's AC but he's likely to find the animal regenerates and has more buddies than he would otherwise expect.

Druids are good multipurpose characters but they very rarely can dish out as much melee damage as the fighter or as much spell damage as the wizard. Druids do poorly when space is constrained as their critters are so big. AC tends to be an issue too, thanks to their armor restrictions.

Besides, the druid dropped a number of spells and entered melee combat. The other characters obviously delayed the golem enough for the druid's "Great Plan" to come to fruition. All in all, it sounds like teamwork.

Of course, I'm prone to letting the druid get real fond of the tactic and then hit him with something unexpected, like a druid/oozemaster who wildshapes from dire bear to ooze once grappled inflicting serious damage on your druid in the process. Or someone with touch attack spells prepped, preferrable something multiuse. And then there's the draconian tactic: the critter explodes once defeated and the grappler would get no save.