Dual Weilding Quickdrawn Thrown Weapons

[Kemrain]

I was wondering, though this has undoubtedly come up before, is it possible to get offhand attacks while weilding thrown weapons? I say thrown, because shot require two hands to use properly. Could you throw a dagger in each hand, and then throw another with rapid shot, and more with the rest of your attacks? And if you could, then Improved 2wf would add another attack onto that, and there are probably even more ways to increase the number of attacks you make.

Would you need quickdraw to do this? Would you need quickdraw to use rapidshot with a thrown weapon, regardless of the dual weilding status?

What about unarmed attacks? Could, for instance, a 20th level Monk get their 5 attacks in, flurry, then use their other hand, and improved 2 Weapon Combat, to get another 2 attacks in? Granted, you'd get big to-hit penalties, but is that sort of thins possible? It allows a Monk to get in 3 attacks a round at first level, with flurry and 2 weapon combat. Is that already taken into account, or is it ok? What if you're not a monk, just using the improved unarmed strike. You could still get 4 attacks, and 2 extra with your off hand.

Anyone want a stab at this?

- Kemrain the Ambidextrous

 

[Darklone]

I was wondering, though this has undoubtedly come up before, is it possible to get offhand attacks while weilding thrown weapons? I say thrown, because shot require two hands to use properly. Could you throw a dagger in each hand, and then throw another with rapid shot, and more with the rest of your attacks? And if you could, then Improved 2wf would add another attack onto that, and there are probably even more ways to increase the number of attacks you make.

Definitely possible. Thanks to the heavy crossbow description though, Two Weapon Fighting does not help with ranged weapons. This means a -6 on all attacks if you use Rapid Shot and your offhand for an additional attack (assuming you have Quickdraw to have enough missiles at hand for three attacks).

Would you need quickdraw to do this? Would you need quickdraw to use rapidshot with a thrown weapon, regardless of the dual weilding status?

Sure. If you wanna throw at least three weapons, wielding two doesn't help much.

What about unarmed attacks? Could, for instance, a 20th level Monk get their 5 attacks in, flurry, then use their other hand, and improved 2 Weapon Combat, to get another 2 attacks in? Granted, you'd get big to-hit penalties, but is that sort of thins possible? It allows a Monk to get in 3 attacks a round at first level, with flurry and 2 weapon combat. Is that already taken into account, or is it ok? What if you're not a monk, just using the improved unarmed strike. You could still get 4 attacks, and 2 extra with your off hand.

Flurry is IMHO TWF for unarmed ones... I wouldn't let it stack.
A 20th level monk with quickdraw though could easily have 5 melee attacks at +15/+12/+9/+6/+3, with TWF and ITWF he'd have 7 attacks at +13/+13(first offhand attack)/+10/+8(ITWF)/+7/+4/+1. Which of these attacks he uses for ranged combat... He can't use his Unarmed attack progression for ranged combat (no kama, siangham or nunchaku). Since you have your attacks in order of decreasing BAB (PHB, combat chapter), he'd have to eat AoOs for throwing daggers while attacking in melee.

 

[Li Shenron]

I was wondering, though this has undoubtedly come up before, is it possible to get offhand attacks while weilding thrown weapons? I say thrown, because shot require two hands to use properly. Could you throw a dagger in each hand, and then throw another with rapid shot, and more with the rest of your attacks? And if you could, then Improved 2wf would add another attack onto that, and there are probably even more ways to increase the number of attacks you make.

It is possible to thrown weapons with your off-hand. I suppose you would get a -4 for the off-hand attack unless you have Ambidexterity. (Beware I am NOT sure of this, but I think the -4 applies for weapon off-hand but not only melee, at least it makes sense).

Now, you don't get 2 ranged attacks (as a FRA) by throwing a dagger in each hand. You throw either of each (as a Standard Action) but not both.
If you have BAB enough for 2 attacks/round, then you can throw both, but you don't get an extra RANGED attack just by wielding a dagger off-hand.

IF you have Rapid Shot you get an additional ranged attack, with -2 penalty to all attacks. Whether you do the extra attack with the off-hand dagger or with a quick-drown dagger, it doesn't matter.

2WF feats are strictly for melee and don't help ranged combat.

Would you need quickdraw to do this? Would you need quickdraw to use rapidshot with a thrown weapon, regardless of the dual weilding status?

If all you can do (because of BAB or because you use Rapid Shot) is 2 ranged attacks, you can do them without Quick Draw if you have one dagger in each hand ready, but I would apply always the off-hand penalties unless you have Ambidex.
If you have Quick Draw, you effectively need only 1 hand for all your attacks.

What about unarmed attacks? Could, for instance, a 20th level Monk get their 5 attacks in, flurry, then use their other hand, and improved 2 Weapon Combat, to get another 2 attacks in? Granted, you'd get big to-hit penalties, but is that sort of thins possible? It allows a Monk to get in 3 attacks a round at first level, with flurry and 2 weapon combat. Is that already taken into account, or is it ok? What if you're not a monk, just using the improved unarmed strike. You could still get 4 attacks, and 2 extra with your off hand.

Don't get confused: Flurry of Blows IS the Monk's 2WF equivalent. It works exactly like that, with the unarmed attack being "light" and not counting off-hand penalties (mainly because there's not really an off-hand, the unarmed strike can be done with any body part). Flurry of Blows REPLACES and therefore does not stack with 2WF feats.

 

[Kharne]

In reference to what Li and Darklone said, it actually does discuss that under Flurry in the Monk section of the PHB. I don't have the book with me, but it mentions that if you have a weapon in your other hand, you can use that as one of your flurry attacks. There is one advantage to using flurry rather than Ambi/Two-weapon, and that is that you get your FULL str bonus on the damage of your off-hand attacks (any extra attacks).

 

[Kemrain]

Thanks for helping to clear this up. That'll ruin a friend of mine's attack routine. Heheheh. I'd been wondering all along.

- Kemrain the Devious

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Dual Weilding Quickdrawn Thrown Weapons

Now, you don't get 2 ranged attacks (as a FRA) by throwing a dagger in each hand. You throw either of each (as a Standard Action) but not both.
If you have BAB enough for 2 attacks/round, then you can throw both, but you don't get an extra RANGED attack just by wielding a dagger off-hand.

Yes, you do. You simply cannot reduce the penalties using the TWF feat (although Ambidexterity does apply).

TWF feat is restricted to melee weapons by the Heavy Crossbow clause.

The extra attack for "Attacking with two weapons" is not restricted to melee anywhere, and in fact, the implication of the Heavy Crossbow clause is that it is intended to be possible, not simply an omission.

A second level fighter with Ambidexterity, Quickdraw, Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot can throw three daggers a round at a -6/-6 penalty.

-Hyp.

 

[DMauricio]

Re: Re: Re: Dual Weilding Quickdrawn Thrown Weapons

Yes, you do. You simply cannot reduce the penalties using the TWF feat (although Ambidexterity does apply).

TWF feat is restricted to melee weapons by the Heavy Crossbow clause.

The extra attack for "Attacking with two weapons" is not restricted to melee anywhere, and in fact, the implication of the Heavy Crossbow clause is that it is intended to be possible, not simply an omission.

A second level fighter with Ambidexterity, Quickdraw, Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot can throw three daggers a round at a -6/-6 penalty.

-Hyp.

Actually, I thought that only applied to crossbows. (be they hand, light, or heavy)

I may just allow that in my campaigns, however, I'd have to limit it only to small thrown weapons. (I seriously cannot see someone throwing two spears or javelins, while I find the idea of two daggers or handaxes thrown this way to be credible)

But then again, each to their own huh?



Dom

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Dual Weilding Quickdrawn Thrown Weapons

Actually, I thought that only applied to crossbows.

Which part?

-Hyp.

 

[Darklone]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Dual Weilding Quickdrawn Thrown Weapons

Actually, I thought that only applied to crossbows. (be they hand, light, or heavy)

I may just allow that in my campaigns, however, I'd have to limit it only to small thrown weapons. (I seriously cannot see someone throwing two spears or javelins, while I find the idea of two daggers or handaxes thrown this way to be credible)

But then again, each to their own huh?

Dom

I never had a char who used it with anything but throwing axes or knives. Hmmm javelins... javelins are light spears, I think it would be possible. I'll try it this weekend and tell you.

 

[Li Shenron]

Re: Re: Re: Dual Weilding Quickdrawn Thrown Weapons

The extra attack for "Attacking with two weapons" is not restricted to melee anywhere, and in fact, the implication of the Heavy Crossbow clause is that it is intended to be possible, not simply an omission.

Would you mind posting the text about dual-wielding crossbows? I cannot find it in the SRD, perhaps it's only in the PHB.

In the "combat modifiers" chapter of the SRD it says only:

Two Weapon Fighting

If a normal character (i.e. a character without the multiattack and/or multidexterity feats) wields a second weapon (fights two handed), that character can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. Fighting in this way is very hard, however, and the character suffers a -6 penalty for regular attacks with the first hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with a other hand. A character can reduce these stiff penalties in three ways:
* If a character's second weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each.
* The Ambidexterity feat reduces the penalty against the second weapon by 4.
* The Two-Weapon Fighting feat reduces both penalties by 2.

As always, the SRD may not be as a reliable source as the PHB is. Here it doesn't specifically say the word "melee" at all, but that doesn't help... I could say that since it doesn't say melee then it includes ranged and therefore 2WF feats apply to ranged as well, while the PHB is clear that they don't.

I am very aware that this is not a simple topic, and I may be very wrong with my interpretation. I just believe that Rapid Shot was exactly designed to allow a ranged-combat equivalent of 2WFing, and the two were not intended to stack. I mean I think that 2WF rules are for melee, Rapid Shot is for ranged, and none has to do with the other.

But let's see the crossbow text first... I thought it said you can wield a crossbow in each hand and shoot with a penalty (for not holding with 2 hands each), but I can't recall if it lets you shoot both of the in the same round, which is of course a very different thing. Even if it does, it COULD still be a specific rule for crossbows, and may or may not apply to slings and thrown weapons. After all, to really shoot with a Xbow requires only to click the trigger (and aim, of course, as any other weapon), while a sling needs to be waved for the momentum, and a thrown weapon needs some swing...