Dual Wielder vs. Polearm Master

[Mort]

Yeah but you are giving up the extra damage you get with dueling

Are you talking about the dueling fighting style?

If so, how are you getting the dueling bonus (of +2 damage) when you are dual wielding?

 

[Zardnaar]

In most games there are ways to get items you want to have. Either you tell the DM and they place them (as is one suggestion in the DMG), they craft them (as there are rules in the DMG to provide), or the DM just has magic markets built into their setting. Not all DMs do, but between the DMs that use one of those three approaches, and the additional situations in which players think they're in playing in a game with one of those situations ...

It is fairly common.

I've played in a fair number of games in 5E that lasted at least 5 levels, and almost all of them provided a route to purchase magic items.

That's not remotely the default though.

What happens in homebrew is one thing but if you're playing official adventures without a compliant DM there's fery few magical polearms comparatively.

Hell in CoS we couldn't buy mundane full plate.

 

[Zardnaar]

It does give you some flexibility in this regard, but it is not "reduced" effectiveness agaisnt high AC enemies, you are doing significantly less damage against them then you would if you took an ASI, due to both the reduced chance to hit and the reduced ability damage on a hit.




I've played around 100 characters in the past three years on numerous tables and I have only had one with a belt of giant strength, and I need to point out that requires attunement. I have had several with gauntlets of ogre power, but they don't give you a 20 and are again attunement, limiting other magic options.

Further if we are looking at magic items, magic heavy weapons are not common at all, so compare GWM with a non-magic greatsword against what you woudl otherwise have at the level you are going to get a belt of giant strength.

PAM extra attack will still balance out high AC. +1 to hit is only 5% boost to damage.

PAM extra attack is close to a 33% boost.

10 avg damage potential lvl 1 greatsword vs
13.

+1 to hit is 5% boot maybe (AC can also be really low miss on a 1 or two).

 

[ECMO3]

Are you talking about the dueling fighting style?

If so, how are you getting the dueling bonus (of +2 damage) when you are dual wielding?

That was a typo - fixed.

What I meant to say is you are giving up the extra damage from dual wielding.

As an aside, there is a way to get +4 damage through dueling per round using TWF. While holding one weapon, make an attack with that weapon (+2 damage), draw a second weapon, make an attack with one of your two weapons (no bonus damage), drop the weapon you just attacked with, make a bonus action TWF attack with the other weapon (+2 damage)

 

[ECMO3]

PAM extra attack will still balance out high AC. +1 to hit is only 5% boost to damage.

PAM extra attack is close to a 33% boost.

What you replied to was about Great Weapon master.

PAM+GWM is two feats meaning compared to a character that took ASIs you are -7 to hit and +8 to damage when you use GWM and -2 to hit and -2 to damage when you don't.

The PAM+GWM bonus action attack is a boost, but it is going to keep up with dual wielding against most foes.

For example 16 AC enemy vs 8th level character:

Defense+PAM+GWM+16 Strength: 16.4 DPR

TWF+Dual Wielding 18 Strength: 19.875 DPR

This assumes you get no bonuses from things like Giant's might, Dread Ambusher, Hunter's Mark, Favored Enemy, Dreadful Strikes etc. IF you get those things it is worse for the PAM/GWM guy.

Now that is at AC16 which should be the average AC you are facing at that level.

 

[ECMO3]

In most games there are ways to get items you want to have.

There are rarely ways to get specific very rare or legendary items.

I would agree that in most campaigns a character can get a Halberd +1 through some method. Most, not all.

However your chance of getting a Vorpal Halberd or Holy Avenger halberd, or Sunblade Halberd or Dragontooth Halberd are near 0. While the chance of getting one of those is rather good if you expand that list to inclunde all melee weapons. At least one published adventure gives you one of those in a Longsword in tier 1.

 

[Zardnaar]

What you replied to was about Great Weapon master.

PAM+GWM is two feats meaning compared to a character that took ASIs you are -7 to hit and +8 to damage when you use GWM and -2 to hit and -2 to damage when you don't.

The PAM+GWM bonus action attack is a boost, but it is going to keep up with dual wielding against most foes.

For example 16 AC enemy vs 8th level character:

Defense+PAM+GWM+16 Strength: 16.4 DPR

TWF+Dual Wielding 18 Strength: 19.875 DPR

This assumes you get no bonuses from things like Giant's might, Dread Ambusher, Hunter's Mark, Favored Enemy, Dreadful Strikes etc. IF you get those things it is worse for the PAM/GWM guy.

Now that is at AC16 which should be the average AC you are facing at that level.

Iirc AC 16 is around 1.5 points higher than the average MM AC.

I've thought the -5/+10 have been overpowered since 2014.

In BG3 I found a legendary+3 mace level 5 and have another one level 10 and not using them because of the -5/+10 feats.

Ones tempting because it's also +1d8 radiant damage.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

White Room of Death?

 

[Zardnaar]

White Room of Death?

Lots of experience.

As DM I compensate via better magical items for the non power feats.

Build a sharpshooter build or gwm oh look a magic lonsword dropped that deals an extra d6 lightning damage or whatever.

 

[Mort]

That was a typo - fixed.

What I meant to say is you are giving up the extra damage from dual wielding.

What damage are you giving up?

Prior to 5th level (so 4th unless you get the feat at 1st) the"extra" damage is 1 per round (less really because of to hit chance). So you'd only need the extra opportunity attack to kick in once per fight or two to equal or exceed that.

After 5th (when extra attack kicks in) the base damage is the same, so any PAM damage from extra opportunity attacks is gravy.

As an aside, there is a way to get +4 damage through dueling per round using TWF. While holding one weapon, make an attack with that weapon (+2 damage), draw a second weapon, make an attack with one of your two weapons (no bonus damage), drop the weapon you just attacked with, make a bonus action TWF attack with the other weapon (+2 damage)

That's a massive amount of effort for the small extra damage. And certainly not worth the stink eye you'll get from most DMs!