WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Aldarc]

Because OA was bringing in lots of tropes from martial arts genres of film. And you expect to see more improvised weaponry in that style of movie. The movies and books that influenced D&D were things like Conan, Three Hearts and Three Lions, Leiber and Vance. OA is inspired more by Samurai movies, the ninja and kung fu craze, and western media that was trying to emulate the fight choreography and martial arts of those films (which was a lot more advanced, stylized and developed than our fight choreography at the time). Those were largely the genres that were being brought into OA. Kung Fu movies were a thing, they were a phenomenon and I think it is okay that that kind of genre was being emulated in this book.

@AbdulAlhazred actually answered this fairly well by noting the disparate sort of media inspiration that D&D drew from that "Oriental" Adventures did as well as the degree of familiarity with the source material, the writing time, etc. It's a work that feels devoid of the literary cultural milestones of its respective cultures. Where is The Journey to the West or Romance of the Three Kingdoms in all of OA? It's about like D&D without King Arthur or Robin Hood, the stories of Greek mythology, Robert E. Howard, Michael Moorcock, JRR Tolkien, or Lieber and Vance, much as you say. Or if D&D was designed in China by people whose only conception of Western fantasy was the popular media of Disney fairy tale movies, Harry Potter, plus other random things that the people knew about the United States: e.g., "let's put guns in this fantasy world because Americans love guns" or writing "Americans greet each other by saying, 'Have you eaten your McDonalds Happy Meal today?'"

Just like I said with gangster movies. The movies are not the problem.

You mentioned gangster movies and Italian-Americans earlier. It was a rubbed me the wrong way then as a comparison, and it still does now. One of the major differences between OA and gangster movies in the US precisely involves the creatives involved. I believe that you mentioned Godfather earlier, which was a movie about Italian-American gangsters which was directed by an Italian-American director that was co-written by said Italian-American director and an Italian-American screenwriter and novelist, who also wrote the book on which it was based. Likewise Goodfellas was a movie about Italian-American gangsters, starring mostly Italian-Americans, directed by an Italian-American, based on a book written by an Italian-American author about an Italian-Irish gangster. Or how about the Sopranos which was created by David Chase. Hmmm..."David Chase" does not sound very Italian. Oh wait, his father was an Italian-American who changed the family name to 'Chase' from 'DeCesare.' A lot of the Italian-American gangster films come to us via the lens of Italian-American immigrants, typically third generation (e.g., Coppola and Scorsese).

The problem are the people who see a movie and think that reflects reality in some way.

This seems like a nice way to move the blame entirely onto the consumers of entertainment and not on the producers of said entertainment, which is awfully convenient for a guy who produces, publishes, and sales entertainment. I think that it's important to understand that creatives do share in the culpability in how entertainment is consumed.

 

[Gradine]

Here's the rub: historical domination and cultural exploitation is a thing, and its effects and impacts still carry through to today. We don't get to pretend it doesn't exist just because we don't want it to. We have to do the work to actively unpack and untangle it. It's hard, and it's messy, and there's a price to be paid, but it's one we owe, rather than resting on the laurels our ancestors built through genocide and slaughter.

So yeah, cultural appropriation is a one-way street. No, that isn't fair. Neither is white privilege. There's a price to be paid. Deal with it.

 

[jasper]

Incidentally, the weapons table should say "knife", not "dagger". A dagger is just one of the many types of knives. A dagger specifies a double-edged blade. A "longsword" can be single-edged or double-edged. There is no need for the weapons table to distinguish them. Besides, as far as I know, modern militaries fight with single-edged knives, not daggers, because the knife is just as effective (maybe more effective) and more utilitarian for other uses.

Yes D&D and Gary is well known for it rich historical research.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

One curiosity, if I may. What's the difference between "Finn" and "Suomi". AFAIK, Suomi is just the name of Finland in Finnish.

P.S. Being a fan of Eläkeläiset I probably know a couple more Finnish words than you do!

Well, I should correct that slightly, the preferred way of saying it is Saami/Sami. There are other well-known terms which are often seen, but they are equivalent to vile epithets, so I will not repeat them. They are NOT just 'Finns', although I understand there is some degree of shared heritage, possibly. To be more precise half of my mother's family were a mix of Karellian Finns and Sami. The Sami were definitely not treated well, probably still are not, in Finnish society, and the common name for them is equivalent to saying 'stupid people' or some such.

 

[Aldarc]

Your point is well taken. It'd be like Canada being represented by an anthropomorphic eagle. If we had a long and sordid history with Canada.

I'd be surprised if a frying pan wasn't statted somewhere in the hundreds of D&D products over the years.

I appreciate that you took time to consider the message that image sent. To answer @AbdulAlhazred's statement about the artist's intent: it was cultural ignorance. But it was one that was corrected, even if that correction may have been inspired in part by Blizzard's desire to market WoW in China.

@Voadam did find a frying pan stat. I'm not surprised. However, I would say that it wasn't something that Gary Gygax or other writers would have considered for initially presenting a book on Western fantasy. It would probably strike us unusual if the shoe was on the other foot and a frying pan, spoons, or forks were listed under the weapons table of an Occidental Adventures book that largely existed as our first foray into non-East Asian fantasy.

 

[Bedrockgames]

@AbdulAlhazred actually answered this fairly well by noting the disparate sort of media inspiration that D&D drew from that "Oriental" Adventures did as well as the degree of familiarity with the source material, the writing time, etc. It's a work that feels devoid of the literary cultural milestones of its respective cultures. Where is The Journey to the West or Romance of the Three Kingdoms in all of OA? It's about like D&D without King Arthur or Robin Hood, the stories of Greek mythology, Robert E. Howard, Michael Moorcock, JRR Tolkien, or Lieber and Vance, much as you say. Or if D&D was designed in China by people whose only conception of Western fantasy was the popular media of Disney fairy tale movies, Harry Potter, plus other random things that the people knew about the United States: e.g., "let's put guns in this fantasy world because Americans love guns" or writing "Americans greet each other by saying, 'Have you eaten your McDonalds Happy Meal today?'"

Often visual media has more impact internationally than written media, and when OA came out, I wouldn't have expected the authors to be very familiar with things like wuxia novels for example. Samurai movies, kung fu films, wuxia films, and american literature inspired by Asian literature, like the Shogun novel, were just more likely to be what inspired something like OA at that time. People need to remember this was pre-internet, and it was very easy to have huge blind spots in knowledge even if you were deeply interested in a topic.

That said there is nothing wrong with something being based on a visual media source rather than a literary one. It produces a different final product, but I think it is a little dismissive of the value of things like Kung Fu and Wuxia Films. Yes this is genre, but there are a lot of very well made films within that sphere (Dragon Inn for example, The One Armed Swordsman or Confessions of a Chinese Courtesan). The problem of OA is just that its perspective would have been so much more narrow because its access to this material would have been extremely limited. It is a lot easier to get a sense of the 'canon' of Chinese Wuxia films today for instance because of the internet. But back then it was entirely possible to know nothing of landmark movies like the ones I mentioned, even if you were a fan and had seen lots of other films from that genre.

Today we are seeing more tranalstions of things like wuxia stories and greater familiarity with stuff like Journey to the West, but we are all largely benefiting from he cultural conversation that has happened since OA came out. I think it is a little off for us to sneer at it, like we would have done better, when we are the beneficiaries of decades of development (including massive advances in communication technology like the rise of the internet and smart phones).

And there are Chinese fantasy movies and shows inspired by western media. One aspect to them is they don't have deep knowledge of the genres that a person from America or England might have, but they also bring something new and fresh to the table, and I wouldn't look down on them simply because they don't have the same familiarity with the literary traditions undermining the works. These shows are fun and entertaining and often get things about western fantasy completely wrong, but that is okay (it even leads to more interesting places sometimes).

But there are also examples of Chinese writers who have deeper knowledge of western literary traditions. Gu Long is supposed to have taken a great deal of inspiration from sources as varied as Hemmingway, Ian Flemming, and Mario Puzo. Both the deeper and less deep approaches can exist and both be fine.

Don't get me wrong I think people being more familiar with this stuff is good. Journey to the West is one of my favorite books, I like reading wuxia fiction translations and I adore Pu Songling. But not everyone is going to come to a game, as a player, GM or even a designer, with the same depth of knowledge. That depth of knowledge can be useful. But I don't think it is, or should be a requirement. Someone with less knowledge might still be able to make something fun and interesting that people want to play, even they are not doing the deep dive into the source material, or are limited to a thinner level of source material because of their means. Not everyone has the time, money or luxury to become nerds of a genre, and I don't think they should have to just to participate in what is supposed to be a fun hobby.

 

[pemerton]

Where is The Journey to the West or Romance of the Three Kingdoms in all of OA?

Journey to the West is in the bibliography (under the title Monkey). I think it is at least in part the provenance of the Monkey General of the Animal Kingdoms. There is also the spell Obedience - which replicates the golden headband that is used to discipline Monkey - as well as the river and ocean dragons that can change form, and the demons (oni, as they're called in the monster section) and spirits that one might encounter while journeying to the west.

I also think that a shukenja - a Buddhist ascetic who can meditate to advantage, must be Good, is forbidden from killing and earns XP by casting healing spells on needy NPCs - makes a reasonable vehicle for playing the sort of monk who might get sent on a journey to the west.

 

[Bedrockgames]

You mentioned gangster movies and Italian-Americans earlier. It was a rubbed me the wrong way then as a comparison, and it still does now. One of the major differences between OA and gangster movies in the US precisely involves the creatives involved. I believe that you mentioned Godfather earlier, which was a movie about Italian-American gangsters which was directed by an Italian-American director that was co-written by said Italian-American director and an Italian-American screenwriter and novelist, who also wrote the book on which it was based. Likewise Goodfellas was a movie about Italian-American gangsters, starring mostly Italian-Americans, directed by an Italian-American, based on a book written by an Italian-American author about an Italian-Irish gangster. Or how about the Sopranos which was created by David Chase. Hmmm..."David Chase" does not sound very Italian. Oh wait, his father was an Italian-American who changed the family name to 'Chase' from 'DeCesare.' A lot of the Italian-American gangster films come to us via the lens of Italian-American immigrants, typically third generation (e.g., Coppola and Scorsese).

And I already acknowledged this and covered it. In addition to the above though, many of the key actors in these movies were not Italian (particularly in the Godfather). And prior to the Godfather, ALOT of gangster movies about the mafia didn't have Italian American involvement. Plenty of later gangster movies were not written or made by Italians. King of New York was written by a non-Italian (the director Italian I believe), and Christopher Walked is definitely not Italian. Donnie Brasco is one of the best mafia movies ever, and that was directed by a non-Italian (the source material was written by an Italian American undercover cop and the screenplay was written by an Italian----but Johnny Depp who played the title role wasn't Italian). My Blue Heaven was based on the same source material as Goodfellas but the script was written by a Jewish woman, and the movie was directed by a Jewish man, and it starred Steve Martin (don't think his real last name is Martino). There are plenty of other examples. And to your point, one of the things that make Goodfellas and Godfather so authentic is the involvement of Italian Americans (the scene where the Clemenza makes the sauce the way he does definitely wouldn't have happened in American hands---just contrast it with Jack Nicholson making sauce in Prizzi's Honor. So I definitely see the value those voices can bring. I am just saying, they are not a requirement to make a mafia movie and they shouldn't be. Lots of good gangster films wouldn't get made if we always had to have Italian American voices in them (and to be honest it probably be bad for the genre if the only perspective you were getting was the Italian American perspective).

I do get your point. Goodfellas is my favorite movie, and one reason why is it resonated with me culturally. I am not denying that Italian American directors have made a massive contribution to this genre. I am just saying they shouldn't be the only ones allowed to contribute.

 

[TheSword]

So this is just a genuine open question. I don’t have an answer to this...

it has been suggested that OA is particularly problematic to Asian Americans because of their minority status and the racism they have suffered in the US. It potentially reminds them of the racism they experience in the real world.

However it has also been suggested that a lot of the kinds of stereotypes described in OA are also used in Japanese and Chinese cinema, TV, anime, comics etc.

When D&D is a worldwide phenomena do Asian Americans opinions and views, supersede the views of Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc gamers that live and game in their own countries and are therefore not minorities. Can it be cultural appropriation if Japanese gamers see use of the samurai as a free exchange of cultures for instance but Asian Americans see it as a harmful stereotype.

I think of the calligraphy scenes in Hero for instance. Do these feminise Chinese warriors more or less than adding calligraphy as a NWP in an OA campaign?

As I said, I don’t have a dog in the fight, I’m just interested.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

@AbdulAlhazred actually answered this fairly well by noting the disparate sort of media inspiration that D&D drew from that "Oriental" Adventures did as well as the degree of familiarity with the source material, the writing time, etc. It's a work that feels devoid of the literary cultural milestones of its respective cultures. Where is The Journey to the West or Romance of the Three Kingdoms in all of OA? It's about like D&D without King Arthur or Robin Hood, the stories of Greek mythology, Robert E. Howard, Michael Moorcock, JRR Tolkien, or Lieber and Vance, much as you say. Or if D&D was designed in China by people whose only conception of Western fantasy was the popular media of Disney fairy tale movies, Harry Potter, plus other random things that the people knew about the United States: e.g., "let's put guns in this fantasy world because Americans love guns" or writing "Americans greet each other by saying, 'Have you eaten your McDonalds Happy Meal today?'"

You mentioned gangster movies and Italian-Americans earlier. It was a rubbed me the wrong way then as a comparison, and it still does now. One of the major differences between OA and gangster movies in the US precisely involves the creatives involved. I believe that you mentioned Godfather earlier, which was a movie about Italian-American gangsters which was directed by an Italian-American director that was co-written by said Italian-American director and an Italian-American screenwriter and novelist, who also wrote the book on which it was based. Likewise Goodfellas was a movie about Italian-American gangsters, starring mostly Italian-Americans, directed by an Italian-American, based on a book written by an Italian-American author about an Italian-Irish gangster. Or how about the Sopranos which was created by David Chase. Hmmm..."David Chase" does not sound very Italian. Oh wait, his father was an Italian-American who changed the family name to 'Chase' from 'DeCesare.' A lot of the Italian-American gangster films come to us via the lens of Italian-American immigrants, typically third generation (e.g., Coppola and Scorsese).

This seems like a nice way to move the blame entirely onto the consumers of entertainment and not on the producers of said entertainment, which is awfully convenient for a guy who produces, publishes, and sales entertainment. I think that it's important to understand that creatives do share in the culpability in how entertainment is consumed.

I feel like we are on somewhat firmer ground here altogether. We are now discussing sensitivity to others, which IMHO is where the discussion should be, not on "who is allowed to do what."

Your commentary on the failings of OA is spot on. While it might not be necessary to heavily reference Chinese classics, it certainly would help if the material tied into and clearly supported those sorts of stories, but it doesn't really... (etc.)

I can also be sympathetic to the idea that there is a 'chopstick obsession'. I suspect there are some Americans, for example, who think that learning to use/using chopsticks is some sort of badge of honor where they've attained some level of cultural awareness. They are pretty much sadly mistaken, it is just a detail of Chinese/Asian culture. Sure, chopsticks have some symbolism etc. but my wife is perfectly happy to eat with a fork and could care less which I use. I doubt very many Chinese, at this point in history, would think differently. So, OA fixating on chopsticks as a weapon, I see it as possibly an eye-roller, but then again I more blame D&D as just being a klunky system in terms of depicting weapons. Plus Chinese drama does have this weird element of 'anything might be a weapon in the hands of a master' that was probably being picked up on a bit by the author.

Producers of media, art, etc. of course bear some responsibility to be sensitive. I think we all agree on that too. It is more the question of someone saying they have NO right to even treat some material at all. It may be true that some sorts of material are so sensitive that they should effectively be left to others, or treatments should always rely on some sort of consultation, but in general I think that is not the case with major cultures. If I did some RPG work that related to, say, Japan, sure it would be stupid of me not to insure it was well done by consulting actual experts/Japanese people, but I don't think they are so downtrodden that any such effort is doomed to be seen as nothing but exploitation. It might be different if I decided to do an RPG supplement on Abanaki Native American stories or something like that.