WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

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This seems like a nice way to move the blame entirely onto the consumers of entertainment and not on the producers of said entertainment, which is awfully convenient for a guy who produces, publishes, and sales entertainment. I think that it's important to understand that creatives do share in the culpability in how entertainment is consumed.

I think it is better to support the rights of artists and creatives than to support the censors. People demanding censorship almost always appeal to good and moral reasons. Even repressive governments that censor content and ideas, usually do so for the greater good of society in some way (or at least what they think is the greater good). Also I think when you focus on the power media has over people, and buy into arguments that you should therefore use media for good messaging, what that leads to is propaganda and, eventually, people not paying attention to your message (you saw this for instance with "very special episodes" in the 1980s, which produced pablum and caused the generation who grew up on it to become very cynical about media messaging). Ultimately, while I don't think the media has no impact on people, I think its impact is greatly exaggerated by people who are making the censorious arguments. Personally I am much more in favor of less restriction of media content, rather than more. Looking to movies to help shape the culture or the moral development of citizens just seems like an extremely misguided notion to me. And it also seems like a notion that is so easily abused when implemented.
 

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Journey to the West is in the bibliography (under the title Monkey). I think it is at least in part the provenance of the Monkey General of the Animal Kingdoms. There is also the spell Obedience - which replicates the golden headband that is used to discipline Monkey - as well as the river and ocean dragons that can change form, and the demons (oni, as they're called in the monster section) and spirits that one might encounter while journeying to the west.

Monkey is, I believe, an abridged translation of Journey to the West
 

I mean, if the term you use to describe a phenomenon is actively offensive to people who aren't familiar with the details of that concept, you should probably change the term. We don't use generic terms like "policemen" or "congressmen" or "firemen" anymore because people found them offensive. We stopped using gendered terms because of the negative associations with them. Is it really useful to insist on using terms like "toxic masculinity" and "patriarchy" when you could use a term like "toxic gender-associated stereotypes" or "systemic injustice of the establishment"? After all, doesn't "toxic masculinity" oppress men and women? Doesn't "patriarch" oppress men and women?

When the early 20th century medical categories for intelligence, namely "idiot", "moron", and "imbecile" first became common knowledge and then later became common English terms, the medical community recognized that the terms were now offensive and therefore inappropriate. So they switched to "mental retardation," and that had similar results. "Mentally handicapped"? Yeah, "handicapped," once a term to replace "crippled" hass now also got negative associations. And how do you think "special" got it's negative connotations? Today we're on terms as sterile as "cognitive impairment" and "severe multiple impairment". It has always been the burden of the area of study to present itself to laypeople as professional, rigorous, and without the biases of popular culture.

If the term itself alienates the very audience you're trying to convince, then you're dooming yourself. The term itself becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure. You need to convince people you're not trying to harm them to convince them that your ideas have merit, but then you immediately use a term that's offensive to them. Communication is a two way street, and if you're constantly finding yourself in a position of immediately having to explain why your term isn't offensive over and over again, then the problem is probably not with your audience. Like it or not, it's a bad term, and it's not pop culture that's going to change. That's like a cup of water asking to change the direction of the river. It's got to be the sociologists and anthropologists who adopt better terms, and then the layperson will listen to your arguments.

Think of it this way. If you dismiss their feelings of being offended by the terms you used, why shouldn't they dismiss your feelings of being offended? Isn't that just a bit hypocritical? You're really doing exactly what you're condemning people for. "Well this is what the term is so we're going to keep using it," is reinforcing your own status quo while insisting on changing the status quo of others. It's just like them saying, "hey, I got past the offensive parts of Unearthed Arcana so why can't you?" It's saying, "my offense is important, but yours is irrelevant". You're never going to win people over arguing like that.

After all, if language really is so important that it's critical that we use terms like "firefighter" over "firemen" or "police officer" over "policemen" then what does that suggest about pervasive use of gendered terms in sociology? Isn't that precisely why the general terms we use are "racism" instead of "white nationalism" or "sexism" instead of "male chauvinism" or "misogyny"?

It's like the terms "pro-choice" and "pro-life" from the abortion debate. Both terms come pre-loaded with natural antonyms that are clearly offensive in the West: "anti-choice" and "anti-life". Those terms make it very clear that people involved in these debates are not interested in compromise or half-measures. It's either 100% agree with them, or 100% disagree with them. There is an intentional denial of diplomacy and compromise on the subject.



Yeah, but the difference between appropriation and diffusion isn't based on what the individual is doing. It's based on the historical and cultural context of who the person is and whose cultural elements they're using and how they're using them. Just because you're taking or using something from a foreign culture doesn't mean it's offensive. In a general sense, the whole point of culture is to adopt the ideas -- fashion, music, etc. -- that are desirable and to discard those that are not. Information transfer is a core element of culture, and all cultures adopt foreign ideas and incorporate them.

The best explanation of how muddy this topic actually gets that I've seen is this video from Rare Earth. It's only 8 minutes long, but I think it covers a lot of the conceptual problems around both actual harmful cultural appropriation and the problem of calling something out as cultural appropriation.

It begins to retread the ideas of cultural authenticity in art (link to make it clear what I'm talking about) and whether that means anything at all. Matt Colville's Future of This Hobby recent stream (link to start of actual stream, not start of useful context; also that stream will probably disappear forever in a week or two) kind of touches on this when he's talking about Jethro Tull changing from playing American blues -- a black American style of music -- to playing prog rock in the form of music inspired by and played on instruments from British folk history. They changed because they didn't feel like their music was authentic playing the blues. This is kind of a tangential topic to what Matt was discussing, but here I think it circles back to the issue in some way and that stream has been rattling around my head for awhile.

What is authenticity? What value does it add? Why, or when, is it important? And who is responsible for answering these questions?

Appropriation and diffusion are both inauthentic in terms of what they're doing, but only one of them is inappropriate. Quite honestly, in actual use I think the only difference between the two is that diffusion becomes appropriation when the cultural context makes it offensive. However, that's a circular definition. It might be that "I know it when I see it" is the only useful operating definition of cultural appropriation, but it's certainly not objective or scientific. That makes it inherently contentious and, well, not a convincing argument in and of itself. It means that when you say, "It's offensive because it's cultural appropriation," you're really just saying, "It's offensive because it's offensive." That might be the best way to describe something! But it's as difficult to defend as a definition of obscenity. The only thing you can do is stop and provide all the context for why it's offensive, and then you've got to rely on consensus. That's a very rough position to be in, especially when you've got to be convincing in 280 characters or less. The alternative seems to be one side shouting "that's offensive" and the other side shouting "not to me" or "so what". This only works when you can generate an apparent consensus, especially online. Usually all that gets you is a half-measure. Actually changing people's minds is a lot more difficult.

It's down to consensus. Everybody knows that. That's why you get immediate pushback on any calls for change. Some people want the status quo, and that doesn't mean they're wrong. The status quo for abortion is very different than the status quo for Confederate flags or the status quo for discrimination in the workplace or the status quo for voting rights, etc.

All I'm saying is, "this is offensive to some people," is not very convincing. Being offended is a very low bar, and being offended in and of itself is not harmful. You've got to be specific not about just what's offensive, but what's harmful. And if it's actual harm that causes actual, tangible damage, then you're much, much more likely to convince people. Unfortunately, cultural appropriation is primarily used for when usage is offensive and not only when usage is harmful. It's often used by people who are not the harmed party and they're offended by proxy, which is often not a particularly convincing position. That's just the reality of how the term is used, like it or not. Arguing that it's only True Cultural Appropriation when it causes actual harm is just running into no true Scotsman. You're stuck with the de facto use of the term. The term as it's actually used, not as you'd like it to be used.

There are definitely cases where appropriation rises to the level of offense, and beyond that to the level of actual harm. The racial stereotypes of the names and iconography of certain sports teams, for example. But convincing people is often going to involve conveying the context that you know. That sucks because it's hard, but that's how you change minds.
Nice points.

I would add, professionals seeking to help heal masculine culture, must communicate compassion toward men, which a hostile term like "toxic masculinity" seems to fail to do.

Regarding positive diffusion verses negative appropriation, I see diffusion as a gift from those who are intimate with an other culture, while appropriation is a theft from an other culture by those who are ignorant of or even hostile to it.

I feel @morris offered a helpful example of what appropriation is, such as statting Jesus. Jesus is a person and a concept that is sacred to many different kinds of reallife communities. For someone that is ignorant of or hateful against such communities to abuse the tropes associating with him, would be a useful example of appropriation. Communities that would find such statting concerning, can use this analogy to understad why appropriating sacred symbols from other cultures can be equally problematic.
 
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So this is just a genuine open question. I don’t have an answer to this...

it has been suggested that OA is particularly problematic to Asian Americans because of their minority status and the racism they have suffered in the US. It potentially reminds them of the racism they experience in the real world.

However it has also been suggested that a lot of the kinds of stereotypes described in OA are also used in Japanese and Chinese cinema, TV, anime, comics etc.

When D&D is a worldwide phenomena do Asian Americans opinions and views, supersede the views of Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc gamers that live and game in their own countries and are therefore not minorities. Can it be cultural appropriation if Japanese gamers see use of the samurai as a free exchange of cultures for instance but Asian Americans see it as a harmful stereotype.

I think of the calligraphy scenes in Hero for instance. Do these feminise Chinese warriors more or less than adding calligraphy as a NWP in an OA campaign?

As I said, I don’t have a dog in the fight, I’m just interested.
Yeah thats the thing.
The ones complaining about the misrepresentation and appropriation of Asian cultures here are in fact not part of said cultures but still insist that they speak "for them".
 

I feel @morris offered a helpful example of what appropriation is, such as statting pL l
LJesus. Jesus is a person and a concept that is sacred to many different kinds of reallife communities. For someone that is ignorant of or hateful against such communities to abuse the tropes associating with him, would be a useful example of apprpriation. Communities that would find such statting concerning, can use this analogy to understad why appopriating sacred symbols from other cultures can be equally problematic.

I am Christian. Was raised Christian. I don't feel like non-Christians, especially non-Christian artists, should feel beholden to our taboos about Jesus. Why should this be above artistic license and above critique? There may be important art to be made that uses Christian symbols and a Christian would find offensive. In fact, somewhat related to this topic, the Chinese movie the Blade (1995), which is a kind of weird remake of One Armed Swordsman but set in a period of unpheaval and chaos, has an odd scene where a character buys a cross or sees a cross in a market. And, if I recall it correctly, handles it in a way that a devout Christian would likely find offensive, but it fits with the theme of the movie and is an interesting moment, that makes you think (because the movie doesn't always clearly explain what it is trying to say). I wouldn't want them to have to take that scene out for American audiences (especially since i am an American and it would bother me that other Americans getting mad would make it impossible for me to see what the director originally intended).

EDIT: Another good example is the "christian priest" in the Snake in the Eagles Shadow Movie. It turns out later (spoilers) he is a Russian fighter in disguise, but early on when we first see him is on the periphery of a fight delicately rebuking the fighters to love one another like Jesus commanded. And it is all done in a way that is clearly mocking Christian sentimentality. That scene isn't something I would want taken out of that movie because it offends a number of Christians.
 
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I think it is better to support the rights of artists and creatives than to support the censors. People demanding censorship almost always appeal to good and moral reasons. Even repressive governments that censor content and ideas, usually do so for the greater good of society in some way (or at least what they think is the greater good). Also I think when you focus on the power media has over people, and buy into arguments that you should therefore use media for good messaging, what that leads to is propaganda and, eventually, people not paying attention to your message (you saw this for instance with "very special episodes" in the 1980s, which produced pablum and caused the generation who grew up on it to become very cynical about media messaging). Ultimately, while I don't think the media has no impact on people, I think its impact is greatly exaggerated by people who are making the censorious arguments. Personally I am much more in favor of less restriction of media content, rather than more. Looking to movies to help shape the culture or the moral development of citizens just seems like an extremely misguided notion to me. And it also seems like a notion that is so easily abused when implemented.

Little fun-filled anecdote to think about, in relation to what you just said.

Almost 25 years ago, Starship Troopers was on the big screen. When I saw it, I loved it. I thought that the director, Paul Verhoeven, has hit it out of the park again with a pitch-perfect satire of militarism and fascism. I remember thinking that if I had never seen a movie so thoroughly and cleverly destroy the tropes of imperialism, and I still can't believe that such a subversive movie managed to get through the whole Hollywood blockbuster process back then.

...and yet! When it was released, the well-meaning critics HATED it. They completely missed that it was a satire (!!) and luminaries such as Roger Ebert (!!!!) called it "the most violent kiddie movie ever made" and this was the usual reaction.

What I thought was blatantly, blindingly obvious went completely over-the-heads of the people who were paid to review the film.

Anyway, the movie is now on Netflix. I watched it with a young family member, and made sure to warn them ahead of time of the "debate." So I was treated, every ten minute or so, to this person looking at me and sarcastically saying, "This is satire? Really?"

Finally, there was a scene toward the end of movie. At this point, the person says, "C'mon. This is ridiculous. Was everyone stupid back then? What more did they need? Do they need to put them in Gestapo uniforms?"

And literally right as that was said, Doogie Howser walked right on to the screen ....
bhkduu2u8td41.png

Couldn't stop laughing the rest of the movie. This is getting back to the point that people even with the best of intentions (and training!) can sometimes badly, badly miss the point.
 

Little fun-filled anecdote to think about, in relation to what you just said.

Almost 25 years ago, Starship Troopers was on the big screen. When I saw it, I loved it. I thought that the director, Paul Verhoeven, has hit it out of the park again with a pitch-perfect satire of militarism and fascism. I remember thinking that if I had never seen a movie so thoroughly and cleverly destroy the tropes of imperialism, and I still can't believe that such a subversive movie managed to get through the whole Hollywood blockbuster process back then.

...and yet! When it was released, the well-meaning critics HATED it. They completely missed that it was a satire (!!) and luminaries such as Roger Ebert (!!!!) called it "the most violent kiddie movie ever made" and this was the usual reaction.

What I thought was blatantly, blindingly obvious went completely over-the-heads of the people who were paid to review the film.

Anyway, the movie is now on Netflix. I watched it with a young family member, and made sure to warn them ahead of time of the "debate." So I was treated, every ten minute or so, to this person looking at me and sarcastically saying, "This is satire? Really?"

Finally, there was a scene toward the end of movie. At this point, the person says, "C'mon. This is ridiculous. Was everyone stupid back then? What more did they need? Do they need to put them in Gestapo uniforms?"

And literally right as that was said, Doogie Howser walked right on to the screen ....
bhkduu2u8td41.png

Couldn't stop laughing the rest of the movie. This is getting back to the point that people even with the best of intentions (and training!) can sometimes badly, badly miss the point.

I had the same experience with this movie. I actually like the book too (which has almost the opposite message----I enjoy watching the movie and reading the book at the same time for this reason)

I think this is a good example. I do remember a lot of people though getting the satire. It is just many of the critics didn't. And I think that says more about the state of media criticism than the movie. It was painfully, blindingly, obvious what Paul Verhoeven was doing. RoboCop gets into similar territory. Both are really outstanding science fiction films in my opinion.
 

Couldn't stop laughing the rest of the movie. This is getting back to the point that people even with the best of intentions (and training!) can sometimes badly, badly miss the point.

This is true. But I think that is what happens when you train people to be overly literally minded (in the sense of taking things literally). And I often think that is what happens in these discussions, where content and message are confused. I think we have a responsibility to not just passively watch a movie, but engage it and understand what it is trying to say. If you turn off your brain when you walk into a theater, you can easily mistake satire like Starship Troopers for fascist propaganda.
 

I'm chopping out this section, because while you made some very well articulated points, I could not get this section out of my head.

No, Toxic Masculinity is not about the oppression of women, it is about the oppression of men, which may have blow-back on women, because men are defined by not being women, but the entire point of the term is to talk about the pressures on men.

I mean, I disagree. Two of the most salient aspects of toxic masculinity are rape culture and the madonna/whore dichotomy, and those very directly and quite severely oppress women.

However, you're just nit picking. "Technically it's not oppression it's only indirect impact," is missing the point of the statement entirely in order to argue semantics. I'm merely stating that both "toxic masculinity" and "patriarchy" are problems for both genders. It's not just men who can express toxic masculinity. Any time a woman tells a boy to "man up" she's engaging in it. And older women are almost stereotypical enforcers of the madonna/whore dichotomy on young women. However, like terms like "firemen", the fact that "toxic masculinity" is a gendered term makes us think these are problems only men have and that men alone have to solve them. It's difficult for me to think of something that would be more instantly antagonizing than telling a group of people that because you have a problem with their culture that they need to change. Even if you agree with the problem you're likely to be dissuaded by that approach. It sets the whole thing up as us vs them. It's about as poor a job of framing your argument as you can make, especially when misandrist feminists do actually exist (although they're much more rare than the myths about them claim... there's very, very little political lesbianism).
 

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