WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[TheSword]

My follow up question would be, that the two editions of oriental adventures has been raised as problematic.

However where does the Legend of the Five Rings series fit within this? As 3e OA was used as the chassis and many of the same conventions used in OA are used in L5R. however it would appear that several of the writing team in the current edition appear to be of East Asian heritage (And to a lesser extent earlier editions). Does this make the same stereotypes in the 3rd edition setting more or less troublesome?

In essence is L5R less troubling now because of a significant Asian presence on the writing team. If it is less troubling then how can the same characters and concepts be a problem in earlier editions?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

This is true. But I think that is what happens when you train people to be overly literally minded (in the sense of taking things literally). And I often think that is what happens in these discussions, where content and message are confused. I think we have a responsibility to not just passively watch a movie, but engage it and understand what it is trying to say. If you turn off your brain when you walk into a theater, you can easily mistake satire like Starship Troopers for fascist propaganda.

This outlines an issue that I have when some people make the ironclad "All that matters is offense" statements.

Let's use Starship Troopers (movie, not book) as an example. Imagine someone was offended by it; that they viewed it as an endorsement of fascism. It's certainly possible, and you can find numerous examples of people then (and even now) who misread it.

But how do you contextualize their offense in light of the likely intended meaning? Does it matter that the director intended it to be a biting satire?

 

[jayoungr]

One of the major differences between OA and gangster movies in the US precisely involves the creatives involved. I believe that you mentioned Godfather earlier, which was a movie about Italian-American gangsters which was directed by an Italian-American director that was co-written by said Italian-American director and an Italian-American screenwriter and novelist, who also wrote the book on which it was based. Likewise Goodfellas was a movie about Italian-American gangsters, starring mostly Italian-Americans, directed by an Italian-American, based on a book written by an Italian-American author about an Italian-Irish gangster.

Things look a bit different if you go back several decades, though. There definitely was concern in the Italian-American community back in the 1930s about how they were being portrayed in movies, to the point where some movie or other deiberately inserted a scene of ordinary, respectable Italian-American citizens complaining about how the gangsters were giving the rest of them a bad name.

The Italian-Americans involved with making the second big wave of gangster movies in the 1970s almost certainly grew up on those earlier gangster movies not made by Italian-Americans. Make of that what you will.

 

[Guest 6801328]

It never ceases to amaze me (foolish me, I know) how those opposed to inclusivity...or, at least, those who are for inclusivity in theory as long as it doesn't inconvenience them in any way...continue to recycle the same old tired arguments, most of which depend on looking at elements of the debate in isolation. When somebody explains (again) what aspect they have omitted from their argument, they then address that new aspect...in isolation. And so on, until the argument has come full circle.

 

[jasper]

For what it's worth, in an RPG setting that specifically wants to be biker or Cowboy themed, i'd expect and welcome seeing bottles or billiard sticks on the weapons table.

Stuff like a bottle counting as a simple weapon (club) for the first hit before turning into a simple weapon (dagger) for the second hit before becoming unuseable after the second hit is exactly the stuff that should be in such a setting book.

but but what if full of Jim beam when I first use Or worse Pabst Blue Ribbon? Or what if a candy glass bottle that they use in the early westerns how much would that do? What if a plastic 2 Liter bottle of Fanta?

 

[MGibster]

I appreciate that you took time to consider the message that image sent. To answer @AbdulAlhazred's statement about the artist's intent: it was cultural ignorance. But it was one that was corrected, even if that correction may have been inspired in part by Blizzard's desire to market WoW in China.

I'm not arguing that OA is perfect; I think it's title makes it self-evident that it isn't. And it's not my place to tell somebody what they should or shouldn't be offended by. But at the same time, I don't feel beholden to anyone to automatically share their feelings about the offensiveness of something. Call it callousness, privilege, or whatever, but I'll just call it my own point of view. But I don't think the offensiveness of OA rises to a level necessitating it being removed from circulation. China and Japan are both media powerhouses who do not need protection from US influence. They were not harmed by the production of OA nor are they harmed by it's continued availability.

I don't think there's anything more productive that can come out of this thread. WotC put a disclaimer on the product at that appears to satisfy most parties even if some of them are still unhappy. Years ago I was told by many people that it was okay to like something problematic just so long as we recognized what was problematic and didn't do it going forward. Now the pendulum has swung a bit more and it appears as though just recognizing something is problematic isn't good enough as some hold we need to get rid of it altogether. One of the days we're going to have to reconcile the products from the past with our values today.

Thanks for you and everyone else who participated in this thread. I shall see my way out the door.

 

[Myrdin Potter]

And, if the conversation has led anyone to think that was the issue, then the conversation got lost.

As said elsewhere - if folks of European descent want to put European culture and myth in a blender, that's probably okay, in that they have some sort of stake in that culture, and are treated moderately well by dominant culture now. For folks to European descent to put another culture and its myths in a blender, and make money off it, while at the same time have their dominant culture treat the other culture badly... that's a problem.

I don't get the whole dominant culture argument. China and Japan are global powers and their culture is everywhere. I would even toss Korea in that category. We are arguing on arguably the biggest D&D discussion board around that is not run by an American, so the whole "American Game aimed at just Americans" rings even more hollow. I listed several times now what I feel about appropriating what is being actively shared and given to the world.

 

[Dire Bare]

I'm reading this and reminiscing about the two Asian brothers in our D&D group at school who were so excited when one of them got that book. Finally we might start playing games in settings that reflect mythology that meant more to them and peaked their nostalgia for childhood tales. It's funny how times change. At the time it was seen very differently. I remember their complaints being about the lack of Thai, Malay and Indonesian myths and monsters.

I've been listening to more of the Asians Represent podcast series at the heart of this "debate".

Interestingly, several of the Asian commentators describe their initial impression of Oriental Adventures when young. Some, like your friends, were EXCITED that a D&D book was released that tried to represent them in the game . . . . and when they finally got their hands on it . . . some were disappointed when realizing how poorly Oriental Adventures treats their cultures, others were less connected/knowledgeable about their heritage culture and/or Asian American racism/stereotypes and ENJOYED the book . . . . but now, later, as adults, they all pretty much HATE the book and how it fails to respectfully represent Asian culture.

One of the commentators specifically, a Filipino American, talked quite a bit about the mixed, complex, and difficult feelings Asians often experience when stumbling across something like Oriental Adventures . . . on the one hand, joy that there is ANY representation at all . . . anger at yet another work on Asian culture written by white men, and poorly at that . . . feelings of being unwelcome and disrespected by mainstream culture . . . stress over feeling like they, as an individual, are expected to represent ALL Asians at their gaming table . . . She also takes pains to point out that while Asian American gamers in general are not fans of Oriental Adventures and similar bits of Asian elements in D&D, "Asian" is a pretty broad group folding many diverse cultures under that umbrella, and that, just like in any group, individual Asian Americans all have different experiences and opinions on something like Oriental Adventures.

Also, somewhat on a tangent, the commentators on the Asians Represent podcast pointed out D&D products that "do it right" if anyone is interested . . . There have been two recent crowd-funders on D&D adaptations of Filipino mythology, "The Islands of Sina Una" and "Islands & Aswangs", and an adventure anthology "Unbreakable" . . . all written by Asian creators. Check them out! They didn't have much good to say about Asian elements in official D&D . . . one guy liked the 4E Hengeyokai, another liked the samurai picture in the 5E PHB for the fighter class . . . .

 

[Dire Bare]

My follow up question would be, that the two editions of oriental adventures has been raised as problematic.

However where does the Legend of the Five Rings series fit within this? As 3e OA was used as the chassis and many of the same conventions used in OA are used in L5R. however it would appear that several of the writing team in the current edition appear to be of East Asian heritage (And to a lesser extent earlier editions). Does this make the same stereotypes in the 3rd edition setting more or less troublesome?

In essence is L5R less troubling now because of a significant Asian presence on the writing team. If it is less troubling then how can the same characters and concepts be a problem in earlier editions?

The folks at the Asians Represent podcast are NOT fans of Legends of the 5 Rings, for similar reasons to why they are not fans of Oriental Adventures. And one frequent guest on the podcast has even written for L5R . . . .

 

[Aldarc]

@MGibster and @Myrdin Potter, part of the whole dominant culture talk, particularly as it relates to America, has to do with the place of white America and its relation to its non-white Americans. One classic example pertains to hairstyles. It's when white society frowns upon black women for styling their hair with cornrows and braids that come from African and Caribbean culture while white society lauds white women for doing the same, calling it "hip," "trendy," and "stylish." So part of what makes cultural appropriation problematic involves when society disapproves when a marginalized or minority people engage their culture, but people from the hegemonic culture are able to strip mine it so it is divorced from its context and accessorize it with little impunity.

Again, this is a simple video that is a nice overview of the issue: