Dwarven Weapon Training and Adventurer's Vault Weapons

[Baumi]

I think the racial weapon training feats were designed to include superior weapons.

If not, weapon focus would be better than these feats since it scales with the tier (equal damage at paragon, more at epic) and you can choose your own weaponcategory. Also if you gain only martial proficiency than this "advantage" would be useless by most martial classes since they already have it in their class.

 

[keterys]

I think it's odd for a _race_ to gain damage (and/or whatever else the new weapon offers) when a new book comes out, and it's definitely odd on the double weapon side.

If they'd been in the PHB, at least it might've made sense, but no they didn't have a single superior spear/axe/hammer in the PHB.

 

[lukelightning]

I think it's odd for a _race_ to gain damage (and/or whatever else the new weapon offers) when a new book comes out, and it's definitely odd on the double weapon side.

I'm balancing this out by making these special weapons "paragon tier"; they won't be available till 10th level.

 

[77IM]

I think it's odd for a _race_ to gain damage (and/or whatever else the new weapon offers) when a new book comes out, and it's definitely odd on the double weapon side.

If they'd been in the PHB, at least it might've made sense, but no they didn't have a single superior spear/axe/hammer in the PHB.

This is my feeling on the matter -- I think the language in those feats was just not forward-looking enough to anticipate that crazy superior weapons with Brutal 2 would be coming out. I don't think the intention was to hand out a whole lot of free superior weapon proficiencies and a +2 damage bonus -- that's like three feats in one. By restricting the free weapon proficiencies to military weapons, it's only two feats in one for most characters (still strong, but a tolerable way to reinforce the racial archetypes).

-- 77IM

 

[DracoSuave]

I can't say they didn't anticipate it. Melee weapon users tend to be able to use military weapons with the exception of a rogue (who has power restrictions) or the cleric, so a feat that's only benefit would be to melee-weapon users giving proficiencies in weapons that most beneficiaries already have would be a trap in Paragon level. Now it is not a trap. It is now -useful- beyond heroic tier, as opposed to useless.

Don't see a problem with it, to be honest.

 

[77IM]

But proficiency isn't the only benefit. Those feats also give +2 damage. That's worthwhile enough to a class which already has military melee proficiency.

-- 77IM

 

[keterys]

It's the equivalent of three feats at heroic tier (counting superior weapon as one feat), two at paragon, and 1 2/3 at epic. What your threshold for too cool is will vary how much you think that's worth.

 

[darkadelphia]

Racial feats tend to be a cut above other feats. Don't know where a stand on this, but just a thought.

 

[DerekSTheRed]

Dwarves are good for melee, but I wouldn't say the best. The dragonborn's +2 to str is a big big factor. And dragonborn get an extra attack every fight which is also useful.

If a dwarf takes their training feat and dragonborn takes weapon focus, they both get an effective +2 to damage. And of course teh dragonborn's feat gets better at higher tiers and he still has that critical +1 to attack rolls the dwarf does not.

The dwarf can now use better weapon, but the dragonborn can take another feat to get that. The dwarf has no feat to give him a +2 to str.

So I think the feat is fine as is, dragonborn fight with raw power, dwarves fight with skill and tradition.

I agree with Stalker0 but I wanted to add that both WF and DWT give feat bonuses and therefore don't stack. That may not be obvious to everyone.

If you house ruled that they gave different bonuses, then the dwarf would benefit from both if he decided to take it. So then the Dragonborn has taken Superior Weapon Prof and WF, while the dwarf takes DWT and WF. That makes them pretty even but the Dwarf has a higher con (which is good for some axe powers) along with the +2 while the Dragonborn has a higher strength (which is always good for melee characters).

 

[Redclaw]

Thanks guys. I was a bit perplexed when I put the two books together, as the feat seemed a bit overpowered. It certainly beats Elven Precision as far as racial feats go. If the design goal with 4E was to make it so there were no "no-brainer" choices, then giving superior proficiencies is probably a mistake. I would never make a dwarf who didn't take it. I don't think it will break a game, as it's only 1.5 to 2 points difference in average damage, but it's certainly an easy feat to choose.