Dwarves don't sell novels

[AdmundfortGeographer]

"Techno" stuff and anachronisms are sprinkled all over the D&D landscape.

See Dave Arneson's Blackmoor (a foundation of D&D if there was one). DA2 Temple of the Frog, DA3 City of the Gods.

 

[rounser]

See Dave Arneson's Blackmoor (a foundation of D&D if there was one). DA2 Temple of the Frog, DA3 City of the Gods.

You guys really think you're onto something here, don't you? Maybe you'd have better luck with the Wilderlands setting, which doesn't have spaceships interloping on a stock standard fantasy setting as a novelty. It just highlights that what you're introducing is alien, which isn't the spin you're looking for.

 

[Herobizkit]

I wanted to go with a classic sort of campaign setting -- dwarves, dragons, kobolds, goblins, a human-run feudal state -- but I wanted to change it up so that it wasn't just The Hobbit leftovers.

So I decided to go with a different mountain culture, one I'm reasonably familiar with and which I thought fit in well with D&D dwarves.

If you've never had a barefoot dwarf spitting tobacco while sharpening his axe on a porch and wearing a standed pair of overalls, I submit your dwarves have been trapped in too narrow of a stereotype, since from where I'm sitting, this fits perfectly and is a natural outgrowth of the standard tropes.

I stand corrected. *LOL*

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

You guys really think you're onto something here, don't you? Maybe you'd have better luck with the Wilderlands setting, which doesn't have spaceships interloping on a stock standard fantasy setting as a novelty.

You sure seem to think that the "novelty" factor changes the frequency factor? The first ever published RPG adventure, Temple of the Frog. Half of the DA Blackmoor adventures involved technology.

Then lets explore the Mystara/Known World expansion on Blackmoor. Its history states that Blackmoor technology exploded and upset the tilt of the planet. The nucleus of the spheres, a techological artifact, a nuclear reactor of Blackmoor technology is fundamentally linked to magic on the planet. A patron Immortal of the wizard kingdom Glantri, Rad, is a survivor of the FSS Beagle, is the patron of "The Radiance"... i.e. magic is a sort of radiation in Mystara. The Wrath of the Immortals epic sends PCs to rediscover a remnant control room of the crashed FSS Beagle space ship. The Blacklore elves are keepers of surviving Blackmoor technology. The city of Serraine, a flying aircraft carrier remnant of Blackmoor is occupied by gnomes who travel all over the planet and descend to the ground via airplanes. The adventure Earthshaker (I believe it was called) involved a Blackmoor era "battlemech" rampaging. There are numerous Blackmoor artifacts to be found throughout the setting.

The technology aspect of Mystara is not a novelty, but thoroughly built into the setting.

 

[Elfdart]

Sexy half-orcs? I'd pay to see that.

*runs*

Supposedly half-orcs are from the 10% that can pass for human. So why would they be any less "sexy" than humans?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

These are curiosities, and departures from the norm of the Greyhawk (and Blackmoor) settings. The very thing that makes them somewhat interesting is their novelty. In fact, I'd suggest that you've scuttled your own argument by even citing these as an example.

Then your suggestion would be way off base.

Historically speaking, psionics was possessed by about 90% of the entries in the 1Ed Deities & Demigods, all of the greater demons and devils, and many other critters in the MM2, Fiend Folio and Monsterous Compendiums. Oh yeah, Brain Moles, Intellect Devourers, Mind Flayers and Thought Devourers are also some old school faves as well.

It was rare only in the sense that it was hard for PCs to get any psionic ability. Considering the proliferation of psionic critters, the rarity of psionics in PCs was almost criminal.

Techno stuff is no more rare than other high end unique magic items- Lolth had her own starship, for instance. And the Modrons are clearly mechanistic.

Peruse some of the 1Ed & 2Ed monster entries, and you'll even find SENTIENT constructs, precursors to the Warforged of Ebberon.

Again, irrelevant. A golem NPC has limited "screen time", whereas a tin man PC has constant "screen time", such that it alters the tone of the game in a way that a single NPC (or even a race of them) is unlikely to.

Your objections seem to be more based on 3.x's expansion of the concept of PC race to include life forms that were (in previous editions) NPC only. It would seem YOU are the one that has the problem with the current system.

And both propositions are demonstrably false, or at least, not as true as you'd like to believe.

It appears that you're making assumptions about my argument because either you don't understand it or don't want to entertain it. I'm not saying these things don't belong to fantasy, just that they need to be handled with care before going "prime time" with them, because they bring flavour implications which you are seemingly blind to. Maybe you wouldn't think twice before adding laser rifles to the PHB equipment list, but surely you can see reason that some folks would? Not even Blackmoor has that. Why? Because they're there as a cross-genre novelty, of course, and don't fit Blackmoor except as alien artifacts. Eberron's tin men would look just the part toting them, though, which says it all, really.

Zander was the one who implied such concepts don't belong in fantasy at all, not you- I was clear on that when I posted.

I understand you just as thoroughly- I just disagree with you. Deeply. You just think that anyone who wants to meld "sci-fi" concepts like psionics or intelligent constructs in D&D in particular is guilty of wrongbadfun:

rounser
Sounds like you need a game that isn't D&D though - that's the real problem here, too many jaded folks who can't move on to another game, and so are attempting to warp D&D into a pulp noir sci-fi paranormal mutant ninja turtle kitchen sink mess. From that perspective, you're the ones who need to move on - D&D doesn't meet your needs, and having it turn into some cross between Indiana Jones and Shadowrun, with extra added dragonsauce on everything would? Sheesh. Gimme Conan over that any day...at least his genre is coherent.

That is very different from Zander's position.

I'm not blind to the flavor implications of anachronistic items or technomagery. 90% of the D&D I've run or participated in as a player has had NONE of what you're complaining about.

However, I had no problem whatsoever running or participating in campaigns that feature such things, even if its prominently. If I wanted to add something like a laser pistol, it will always be for a reason, even if its just a red herring. I don't add things just "'cause its kewl!"

 

[Turjan]

I'm not blind to the flavor implications of anachronistic items or technomagery. 90% of the D&D I've run or participated in as a player has had NONE of what you're complaining about.

However, I had no problem whatsoever running or participating in campaigns that feature such things, even if its prominently. If I wanted to add something like a laser pistol, it will always be for a reason, even if its just a red herring. I don't add things just "'cause its kewl!"

I'm in the same camp. I read quite a lot of the old fantasy stuff, when it was still labeled "science fiction". I think the first fantasy book I ever read was a collection of the (original) Dying Earth stories, which means that Vancian magic and swords in combination with flying cars and electric light is somehow natural to me. Later, I liked the Might & Magic series of CRPGs where you, frex, start with swords and magic and end up fighting aliens with laser guns. I don't mind that stuff in D&D, either. That's probably the reason why I love aberrations; I have always imagined mind flayers as aliens with underground cities with artificial lighting and sliding doors.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I have always imagined mind flayers as aliens with underground cities with artificial lighting and sliding doors.

Heh! I bet you love their entry in Lords of Madness!

 

[Turjan]

Heh! I bet you love their entry in Lords of Madness!

I love Lords of Madness . I also love the spaceship (okay, spelljammer ship ) that comes with its web enhancement .

 

[Zander]

Two broad questions for those of you who believe that D&D should be turned into a sci-fi game replete with robots and spaceships:

1. In the presence of science, how do you explain magic? How do dragons fly? How do pegasi preen their wings?

Once you let the genie of scientific reason out of the bottle, there is nothing to stop it being applied to everything in your setting. Everything then has to be justifiable by scientific (or at least pseudo-scientific) principles and the fantasy unravels.

2. Do heroes in your campaign ride around on bicycles?

If the imagery of fantasy isn't important to you, are you happy to have your heroes ride around on proto-BMXs? Heroes in my campaigns ride horses.