Dwarves rock, Half-orcs suck! - An analysis

snarfoogle said:
Of course, don't get me started on the Warcraft RPG dwarves. They're IIRC the same as PHB dwarves, without +2 saves vs. magic, but with weapon familiarity with all sorts of firearms, and "Stone Flesh" 1/day (+2 ac, for con mod+level rounds and +1 more at 6th, 12th and 18th. And the other races...
All Warcraft races are slightly more powerful than core races. Warcraft prestige classes are pretty powerful too. But everything is internally balanced; it works well within Warcraft but off-world characters may be slightly weaker. It looks a bit too neat to be a bug, so I think it's a design choice to bring the world more into focus.
 

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Actually, that Warcraft dwarf sounds slightly weaker than a core dwarf, due to losing the race's most powerful feature (the save bonus).

However, I'm not familiar with Warcraft RPG firearms. If they're very good (as they should be to match the RTS), then that would click. Certainly, in every instance I've seen Warcraft RPG stuff it has seemed to fall on the strong end of the scale.
 

MoogleEmpMog said:
A dwarf druid will be even better than every other core druid, although not by much.
Not sure about the others, but I think you're off here. Best druid is either a human or a EL +0 race with a Wisdom bonus (is there one?)

In wildshape, you lose the +2 Con bonus and basically all racial abilities (including the save bonuses). A human, however, keeps the bonus feat and bonus skill points. And races with mental stat bonuses and physical stat penalties would keep the former and lose the latter in wildshape.

I picked halfling for my current druid in part because I like halflings, in part to have a mount that can go into buildings, and in part for better survivability before getting to the wildshape levels.
 

experience

In the games I run or play, we ALWAYS have a halfling thief (except in one game where tournament characters were assigned). Our resident min-maxer assures us that the halfling bonuses are the best deal: +2 dex, +1 Ac, +1 to hit, skill bonuses, etc. Otherwise, we see alot of elves. Some humans. Few half-elves & half-orcs. Even fewer dwarves.

The best half-orc I played was a 3.5 ranger. He had great STR & DEX; and his other scores were above average. It was an underground adventure in which all the original characters died save the aforementioned halfling thief (in capable min-maxer hands). (One other character lived but should have died.) Anyway, the only way to run with this heck-on-wheels halfling was to have a bigger, stronger character that could also hide & move silently underground with the advantage of darkvision. The halfling still emerged at the pary leader; being more experienced and all. Also, not wanting to be the guy whop didn't bug out when the halfling decided the situation was untenable... But, that character was great fun to play.
 

Brother MacLaren said:
Not sure about the others, but I think you're off here. Best druid is either a human or a EL +0 race with a Wisdom bonus (is there one?)

In wildshape, you lose the +2 Con bonus and basically all racial abilities (including the save bonuses). A human, however, keeps the bonus feat and bonus skill points. And races with mental stat bonuses and physical stat penalties would keep the former and lose the latter in wildshape.

I picked halfling for my current druid in part because I like halflings, in part to have a mount that can go into buildings, and in part for better survivability before getting to the wildshape levels.

Hmm... lose the save bonus while wild shaping? I've never seen it run that way (and never had a dwarf druid as a PC, so it never came up with other DMs), but it does seem like a logical ruling. In that case, I agree, a human, halfling or gnome would be the way to go.

Wis bonus... I believe there's a variant Nezumi in the Rokugan book who gets a Wis bonus. And yes, that would be ideal.
 

I think that half-orcs and Intimidate follow the basic DMG rule: favorable conditions give you a +2 on a check. Being a half-orc is a favorable condition for intimidating someone. I'd also add bonuses/penalties for size (so a halfling or gnome suffer a -2 penalty when trying to intimidate a Medium creature).
 

Well, in my last two games, we have had the following race distribution:
Human 8
Elf 1
Half Orc 2

Half Orc is one of the most popular race choices among my players, whereas Dwarves are shunned. I don't see any situations coming up where the Dwarf Fighter is overpowering the Half Orc Barbarian.

Furthermore, I would like to argue AGAINST using Strength for Intimidate checks. Why? First of all, many things might be intimidating other than the guy who's built like Ahnold Scharzenegger, like wizards who know fireballs, or the infamous assassin. Why not give Intimidate bonuses for other stats than Str, since sneak attacks and spells can hurt at least as much as normal beatings.

Second, the intimidation of some muscle-headed thug is rational. If him and a bunch of his buddies surround you in a forest and ask for your money, rationally one might decide to give him the money he wants to avoid being hurt. Or you might run, scream for help, cast an Empowered, Maximized, Sonic-Substituted Fireball, whatever. Intimidate's effects are, in my opinion, irrational. Provoking fear that might not otherwise exist. Making the king on his throne, surrounded by elite guards, stll on edge in front of the savage barbarian.

Another point I'd like to bring up: Constitution is NOT the most important stat. It's often the second (or maybe 3rd) most useful stat for every character. A more efficient build uses a race that increases one's primary stat, and then gets a decent Con. (Although Elves still suck)

And while this mechanical analysis is impressive, do you guys have a bunch of players using l337 Dwarf characters, or have you noticed that the Dwarf character overshadows the others (by virtue of being a Dwarf)
 

Will said:
Half-orcs make good fighters and barbarians, rogues (who needs Int?)

Ummm have you ever played a Rogue?
A Rogue is a skill based class. Int very important for number of skills.
Too answer your question Rogues need INT as does any skill based class.

IIMO Int is the most important stat for a Rogue.
Stat order of preference for Rogue builds once again IMO.
1. Int
2. Cha
3. Dex
4. Con
5. Str
6. Wis
 

Hrmm

Scent is pretty nice. Give that to them and I'd say that they're pretty balanced, it might even swing them over to the slightly better than average side... well, for some cases... Still not better for most however.

On the other hand, if you want good but not great, I say give them the human's +1 to skill points. This virtual bonus to int takes away some of (a lot of if your not arcane) the sting of the int penalty. And it makes sense... and it specializes them into fighter even more!
 

Felonious Ntent said:
Ummm have you ever played a Rogue?
A Rogue is a skill based class. Int very important for number of skills.
Too answer your question Rogues need INT as does any skill based class.

IIMO Int is the most important stat for a Rogue.
Stat order of preference for Rogue builds once again IMO.
1. Int
2. Cha
3. Dex
4. Con
5. Str
6. Wis
Interestingly enough, I play a lot of Rogues and believe that Int is the LEAST needed. That 8+Int is great for balancing a low Int mod. The way I usually play Rogues lists the abilities like this:

1) Dex
2) Cha
3) Wis
4) Str
5) Con
6) Int
 

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