Dwarves rock, Half-orcs suck! - An analysis

[Munin]

"Blargh! Me eat your spine! Raaargh!"

I don't know what world you play in, but with a slogan like that, any half-orc worth his salt is going to get results. I never bought the whole charisma=intimidate line anyways. Think about the real world...there is a reason the shady types always have a big, hulking oaf around: he doesn't have to say a word, just standing there is enough to intimidate most people.

 

[BryonD]

Let's put it like this:

Elf Barbarian1: Str 15 Dex 13+2=15 Con 14-2=12 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 10
Skill Points: (4-1)x4 = 12. Low-light vision, +2 Search/Spot/Listen/Enchant. saves, Immune to magical sleep. Feat: Power Attack. Atk +3 Greatsword (2d6+3). AC 13 (leather + Dex). HP 13.

Half-Orc Barbarian1: Str 15+2=17 Dex 13 Con 14 Int 8-2=6 Wis 12 Cha 8
Skill Points: (4-2)x4 = 8. Darkvision. Feat: Power Attack. Atk +4 Greatsword (2d6+4). HP 14.

That +2 Str isn't making much of a difference (15 vs. 17 Str). Just as much as the -2 Int (8 vs. 6). When the special abilities factor in, the half-orc is clearly short-handed.

I would not hesitate to play the half-orc in your comparison.
Jump and climb are typical 1st level barb skills, so I just got 1/2 my sp back right there.
I can rage for a round longer than the elf as well. That can be critical.
Also, one more point in STR and I get +2 damage on you, rather than just +1.
And as a lower AC front line combat type, I'll take +1 HP/level over +1 AC any day of the week. Both these characters are going to get hit a lot. The half-orc will be standing longer.

The half-orc is by far the easiest race to build a sub-optimal character with. But an optimized half-orc can hold its own with an optimized elf any day.

I don't think you half-orc above is clearly better than the elf. But it shows a decent balance to me.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I think most races are balanced if you play the race to their mechanical advantages they surpass a human and other races, if you play against them they are weaker than a human and other races. Dwarf clearly gets way too much if it was too boost there use like the cleric then this was just as dumb of a choice as the super powered cleric is. And the 1/2 orc sucks -2 int hurts big for there prefered class of barbarian which is a skill focused fighter type. The -2 chr only hurts for the intimidate skill which I really don't want to get dragged into. The big problem is though that assuming the stats balance with a loss of 2 stats where is everything else. Every other class has balanced stats and they get a heck of a lot more than just darkvision. This was beyond moronic in 3.0 and flatly inexcusable in 3.5.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I would not hesitate to play the half-orc in your comparison.
Jump and climb are typical 1st level barb skills, so I just got 1/2 my sp back right there.
I can rage for a round longer than the elf as well. That can be critical.
Also, one more point in STR and I get +2 damage on you, rather than just +1.
And as a lower AC front line combat type, I'll take +1 HP/level over +1 AC any day of the week. Both these characters are going to get hit a lot. The half-orc will be standing longer.

The half-orc is by far the easiest race to build a sub-optimal character with. But an optimized half-orc can hold its own with an optimized elf any day.

I don't think you half-orc above is clearly better than the elf. But it shows a decent balance to me.

Actually in some respects this shows hoe screwed up the 1/2 orc is. Sure you'd play the 1/2 orc in his example, but if you don't think the 1/2 orc is clearly better and it shows a decent balnace its absurdly unbalanced. We're playing to the 1/2 orcs main abilities and he's what at best marginally better than a frilly little elf at being a barbarian. That's unbalanced.

 

[francisca]

eat anything, the ability to eat and digest revolting organic things like carrion and shoe leather.

Heh. We've had that as a houserule in every group I ever play 1E with. Wonder why I never gave it any consideration for 3.x.

Thanks for the reminder, you crazy, half-blind, nautical feline!

 

[Particle_Man]

If Str is so much better than mental stats, then note that no core ECL 0 race and almost no ECL 0 race gets mental stat bonuses (there are exceptions, but they are exceptions). the half-orc got the shaft. I would give the half orc Scent (as per the optional rule in teh 3.0 DMG) and weapon familiarity: orcish double-ax. And I would give the half-elf and half-orc the choice of either a bonus feat or an extra skill point per level (quadrupled at 1st level).

 

[Aaron L]

In my campaign half orcs gain an additional feat at 1st level and get a +4 racial bonus to intimidate checks. Now they are even better barbarians and they don't automatically stink at everything else.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

If Str is so much better than mental stats, then note that no core ECL 0 race and almost no ECL 0 race gets mental stat bonuses (there are exceptions, but they are exceptions). the half-orc got the shaft. I would give the half orc Scent (as per the optional rule in teh 3.0 DMG) and weapon familiarity: orcish double-ax. And I would give the half-elf and half-orc the choice of either a bonus feat or an extra skill point per level (quadrupled at 1st level).

spellcasters especially wiz/sor really only need there mental stat. Sure a good con and dex and wis is gravy but all you need is your int or chr. Any race that gives a benefit to this stat is by far the best race for those classes. A spellcasting oriented race should be better and quite frankly I don't think there mechanically is one in the game yet, but a +2 in a mental stat(assuming standard other racial benefits) would make the race massively better especially in a point buy game

 

[Will]

Half-orcs make good fighters and barbarians, rogues (who needs Int?), melee-oriented clerics, rangers...

My complaint is that they are simply uninteresting.

Adjustments to ability scores, darkvision... ... um. That's it.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

In my experience, when looking for mechanical advantage, you simply can't go wrong with the 3.5 dwarf, unless you're playing a bard or sorcerer. Some people don't like dwarves for roleplaying reasons (although just as many, IMX, enjoy them immensely), but for pure power, they're on the broken side of ECL 0.

Ability Adjustments

Con is by far the most important stat in the current rules. Core only, Con applies to:

Hit points, Fort saves, barbarian rage duration, Concentration checks

Add in other non-core material and it can quickly be applied to spellcasting (Rokugan Earth Shugenja, and that's certainly dwarf-flavored, and an old broken feat) and AC (Races of Stone Deepwarden).

Best of all, Con applies to every single class. Spellcasters? Better hit points and Concentration checks. Rogues and monks? Better hit points and, for the former, fortitude saves against trap poisons. Front-liners? Better hit points.

Cha, although applicable to lots of different things using non-core material (it's actually the key for a 1-attribute character, in truly bizarre builds), requires a lot of workarounds to make valuable.

Key Features

+2 to saves against all magic and poison, coupled with that above-average Con and no penalty to a save-granting stat, means that a dwarf is likely to make the majority of the saving throws he'll ever face. Basically, he has to deal with disease and mechanical traps in the same way a normal character would. This ability would be worth a feat for each save, if it stacked with Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes and Great Fortitude - which it does. Compare it to the Cumbrous feat tree from Savage Species.

Darkvision is the best type of vision. It's not massive, but certainly it's very useful in the dungeon environment core D&D is designed for. Worth a feat, but not available through one.

No movement penalty in armor, aside from being ripped off directly from Warhammer, is a bit more limited - spellcasters and monks won't benefit from it. Nonetheless, it negates the major downside of dwarven speed for a cleric, fighter, barbarian or paladin. Almost worth a feat, but not available through one.

Secondary Features

Weapon familiarity, stability orc and goblin attack bonus, stonecutting, giant dodge bonus, two languages, a favored class of fighter (one of the best dipping core classes)... these aren't all that great individually, but they sure do add up.

Racial Classes

Dwarven Defender, Runecaster, Deepwarden... dwarves have the strongest racial classes by far. Dwarf Paragon isn't bad, either.

Overall

The main thing that makes dwarves so strong is that they have no real downside. Even as bards or sorcerers, they're still just slightly below average - the half-orc can't say the same.

A dwarf fighter or barbarian will generally break even in a duel with a half-orc, and defeat anyone else.
A dwarf rogue will generally perform about as well as a halfling or elf rogue.
A dwarf cleric will generally outperform any other.
A dwarf monk will generally outperform any other.
A dwarf paladin will break even, despite his Cha hit, because he'll have a net +1 save against most things and more hp to counteract the loss of some lay on hands.
A dwarf wizard will generally win a magic duel against a grey elf wizard, despite the latter's higher casting stat. And to even come close, I have to look to a non-core race.
A dwarf ranger will generally break even, being perhaps a bit behind a human.
A dwarf druid will be even better than every other core druid, although not by much.
A dwarf bard will be okay, but behind a gnome, halfling, human, half-elf or star elf.
A dwarf sorcerer will be okay, but behind a gnome, halfling, human, half-elf or star elf, possibly behind a regular elf, as well.

A dwarf paragon/wizard/runecaster will be leagues ahead of any other fighter/mage, wearing full plate and still lobbing excellent spells with NO chance of failure. He's almost on par with a non-dwarven cleric.

A dwarf fighter/dwarf paragon/deepwarden/dwarven defender will dominate every defensive battle. Only a large chain tripper fighter is better at defending a position.