Dwarves rock, Half-orcs suck! - An analysis

[painandgreed]

It depends on that type of campaign you're in, but something I'd also consider is lifespan. Elves live for a long time and orcs for a shorter amount of time. I've only played in two campaigns where it mattered, but in one my human thief got old, reached maximum age, and died (no raise possible of course), and in the other it went on in game time so long that we started playing our characters children and grandchildren. Everybody elses original characters were too old to do much of anything if they were still alive, while my original elf character was still a youngster and could be brought in anytime he was needed. If you have a really long campaign or lots of downtime, that half-orc could lose his Str bonus plus some before the others feel it.

 

[Sejs]

When I run, half-orcs get:

+2 racial bonus to Intimidate and Survival checks.
Weapon Familiarity: Orcish Double-Axe and Orcish Shotput are considdered martial weapons, rather than exotic.
+2 racial bonus on Fortitude saves vs poison or disease.

 

[Impeesa]

A quick comment on the points... as a general rule, I'd say an ability score penalty is worth less (in absolute value) than a bonus of equal amount. When you're trying to squeeze out a high prime stat, every point counts, but it's usually pretty easy to suck up a penalty to your not-so-prime stats without a great deal of collateral damage.

--Impeesa--

 

[Mokona]

Game Balance

In this post I'm thinking mostly of combat and the average D&D encounters/obstacles that most player's characters need to overcome to succeed or continue with the story.

The problem with a point buy system is that not all options in one area are equally important or useful. Wizards clearly believes that +2 in Strength is better than +2 in Charisma. Are they right? All I can say is that a +2 in some stats is better than a +2 in other attributes, relatively.

In addition, a +2 bonus for some skills is relatively better than the same +2 on other skills. Tumble is extremely useful for flanking while Appraise is problably a lot lower value.

In effect each bonus or penalty must be scored individually and that is hardly better than trusting the designer/editor who approved the PHB Dwarf entry.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Wow, imagine how many points the Warforged must be in this system!

Well, aside from the "numerical values of holistic abilities cannot be really measured accurately in a vacuum" BS that we always hear, and that I believe is really true, yeah, a Dwarf Cleric is officially the twinkiest thing you could ever play.

But you know, I haven't seen one yet. This is primarily a difference in perception vs. play. Which, oldy enough, is the same way one defends the Warforged. Yes, Clerics seem like the most powerful class, and yes Dwarves get more goodies than most other races. But it certainly doesn't unbalance anything, as far as I can see...it's not like dwarves dominate any field, or that they are somehow dominating and lording it over every other character...it's not like one party with a dwarven fighter and a human fighter would always have the human being frustrated, and the dwarf beign successful, given the usual array of challenges. Just like when given the choice between a human cleric and a human fighter the choice isn't always obvious. It's not like they're overpoweringly mighty, overshadowing every other race, and they're still probably the least-played race in my games. Not for lack of trying, either, the dwarves I've had in the game have all been quite hardcore (no comic relief Gimlis here!).

As for half-elves and half-orcs, bah. Who needs 'em, when I allow full elves and full orcs?

So, you're right, they do get a lot of goodies. But it's not enough to make other race choices useless or invalid in the game by comparison, so they remain tentatively okay. And the reason I personally ban the Warforged is because I think they do overshadow the dwarf in many areas, to the point where a Warforged Fighter and a Dwarf Fighter would mostly have the warforged shining in the majority of circumstances (not all of 'em, but enough to be nervous about. )

 

[snarfoogle]

Half-orcs do indeed suck. However, for a good Half-Orc race, use the ones from the Warcraft RPG. I doubt it's open gaming content, so I'll paraphrase:

+2 Con -2 Wis - +40 -40
Low Light Vision - +20
+1 racial on saves vs. Fear - +5
+2 racial on intimidate and sense motive - +20

Total: +45

There, that's mechanically decent, but I would definitely weight +2 con more than +2 wis in a game which has any amount of fighting. That's 50-55 right there.

Of course, don't get me started on the Warcraft RPG dwarves. They're IIRC the same as PHB dwarves, without +2 saves vs. magic, but with weapon familiarity with all sorts of firearms, and "Stone Flesh" 1/day (+2 ac, for con mod+level rounds and +1 more at 6th, 12th and 18th. And the other races...

 

[der_kluge]

Die Kluge, would you mind running your numbers through these two half-orc variants I wrote? They're at: http://www.fierydragon.com/DB/DB_MAY27_2004.htm

I think the +2 Str is vastly overestimated. They say "Oh, when you have Str 20, no one will care about your skills!". But to have that Str 20, you must have assigned an 18 to Str! An elf barbarian, using the same build (and assigning the same numbers to the same stats) would have Str 18.

So, in the end, +2 Str really is just "+1 to hit and damage, slightly greater carrying capacity, +1 to a few skills". To me that balances well with just -2 Int, which results in "-4 skill points at 1st level, -1 skill point per level, 1 less language, -1 to a few skills".

Klaus -

half-human orc
speed 30=0
medium=0
darkvision=40
+2 str=40
1 exotic weapon=5
+1 survival, listen=10
+2 intimidate=10
endurance (Feat)=30
xp penalty=-10
-2 int=-40
-2 bluff, dipl, gather info=-30
total=55

half-orc human
speed 30=0
medium=0
darkvision=40
+2 str=40
+1 listen=5
+2 intimidate=10
endurance (Feat)=30
xp penalty=-10
-2 int=-40
total=75

Analysis - the half-orc human is spot on with the first four races I did! The half-human orc seems to be a bit weak, since the -2 to bluff, diplomacy, and gather info is a fairly significant drawback. From a role-playing perspective, I suspect the half-orc in the party is the last one to attempt those, but mathematically, that's how it comes out. The exotic weapon is nice, but not huge. I might be tempted to increase the cost of that. I gave the gnome 5 points for the hooked hammer, but seeing as how most gnomes aren't really fighter types, it hardly matters. I see this as being a little better.

Regardless, both are much better than the PHB version.

 

[der_kluge]

I don't know what world you play in, but with a slogan like that, any half-orc worth his salt is going to get results. I never bought the whole charisma=intimidate line anyways. Think about the real world...there is a reason the shady types always have a big, hulking oaf around: he doesn't have to say a word, just standing there is enough to intimidate most people.

In my last campaign, I house-ruled a "Bully" skill that was Str-based that worked exactly like Intimidate.

We didn't have any problems with it. It all depends on how you get intimidated, I guess.

Either is a stupid skill anyway. These things should be role-played. Not, "I roll a 25 on my intimidate, is the king phearing me yet?"

 

[der_kluge]

I think if I were to rebuild a half-orc, I would do it like such:

darkvision
+2 str
*eat anything* (I like this one!)
+2 saves vs. fear
+2 saves vs. poison
+2 intimidate

-2 wis (makes more sense to me)
XP penalty.


Dwarves are just out of control. I think the +2 saves vs. magic is just way overpowered, and probably should just be removed. I would probably remove their stabile ability.


I would do the FRCS races, but that's in storage. And yes, most everything I've ever seen in FR is just on the high side of being overpowered.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

And the reason I personally ban the Warforged is because I think they do overshadow the dwarf in many areas, to the point where a Warforged Fighter and a Dwarf Fighter would mostly have the warforged shining in the majority of circumstances (not all of 'em, but enough to be nervous about. )

Wow... I totally disagree. The 'forged have their niche (basically their full and partial immunities), but the +2 saves agains all magic is, IMO, simply way beyond anything a warforged gets without taking the otherwise somewhat lame Warforged Juggernaut.

I do think the warforged overshadow half-orcs even worse than other races, because they get similar stat modifiers but significantly more bonuses.

Personally, I'd like to see a system like OGL Steampunk's background points applied to all the LA +0 races. Great idea, better executed than the horribly open to abuse BESM d20 character point system. Which isn't to say OGL Steampunk balances the background point costs of the races in it.