Eadric et. al. (The Paladin and his Friends).

[Joshua Randall]

When the group are preparing for the battle at Khu Mostin question Mulissu about her spells and she mentions Skeletal Deliquescence. What is that spell and is it one of yours, Sep?

In D&D terms, this spell appears in Magic of Faerun as Simbul's Skeletal Deliquescence. It turns the target to mush, making it an ooze-like creature. Pretty nasty.

I believe the spell's name originally comes from Jack Vance. (As does "The Excellent, if Unpredictable, Prismatic Spray" and many other D&D spell names.)

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Hey Sep, I know the general theme of how this works in story, but could you explain some of the mechanics you worked out for it?

Honestly, I've never decided whether its an arrangement between celestials and fiends, the will of Oronthon, some powerful mega-spell invoked by the celestial host, or simply the fear of overwhelming heavenly retribution if fiends begin routinely interfering in the affairs of mortals - outside of accepted avenues. Its probably one of those things that I'd rather not define. At least, not yet.

I wasn't able to find an item quality for transcendental. Anyone got a pointer, or did you create this too Sep?

I wanted artifacts that were completely beyond mortal capacity to affect - although they could be activated and utilized. You cannot break the web of motes or disjoin Pharamne's urn no matter how hard you try. In some ways, they are outside of ideas such as time, or cause and effect. With both of them, you're kind of outside the box, looking in. If you get my drift.



Cheiromancer, I bow to your sneakiness when exploiting loopholes in the epic spell system.

 

[Roman]

I wanted artifacts that were completely beyond mortal capacity to affect - although they could be activated and utilized. You cannot break the web of motes or disjoin Pharamne's urn no matter how hard you try. In some ways, they are outside of ideas such as time, or cause and effect. With both of them, you're kind of outside the box, looking in. If you get my drift.

Very interesting - I am guessing that the Clawgiver is also a transcendental artifact.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Cheiromancer, I bow to your sneakiness when exploiting loopholes in the epic spell system.

Thank you. That really makes my day!

Here's the suite of spells that I have been tinkering with. I suggest Graz'zt would buff his intelligence before researching and casting other spells such as the impregnable defense against the celestial host.

Waxing clarity is the first buff he casts, and only if he is not already buffed. Immediately upon completing it Graz'zt casts sustained clarity. Immediately after casting sustained clarity he casts the first 2 of the mind spells, and the following day he casts the other three. This gives the dark prince a 188 Intelligence indefinitely, provided he spends 4 days out of every 35 casting sustained clarity and the mind spells. (The mind spells can be cast at any time during the month). Note that thanks to his amulet, no 7 day period ever sees him spend more than 15 000 xp from his "float."

Waxing Clarity
To Develop: Seed: fortify (17 DC). Factors: enhancement bonus of 83 points to intelligence (+164) DC). Increase Duration by 400% (+8) (to 4 days 4 hours): Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 3 days 10 minutes (-26 DC), burn 6800 xp (-68). Final spellcraft DC: 95
(boosts intelligence by 83, to 118. New Spellcraft score is 73+54= 127)

Sustained Clarity
To Develop: Seed: fortify (17 DC) Factors: enhancement bonus of +83 to intelligence (+164 DC). Increase Duration by 4100% (+82) (to 35 days): Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 3 days 10 minutes (-26 DC), burn 10 000 xp (-100). Final spellcraft DC: 137

Profane Mind (boosts intelligence by +12)
To Develop: Seed: fortify (23 DC) Factors: profane bonus of +12 to intelligence (+66 DC). Increase Duration by 4100% (+82) (to 35 days): Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), burn 1400 xp (-14) Final spellcraft DC: 137
(new spellcraft score is 133)

Insightful Mind
To Develop: Seed: fortify (23 DC) Factors: insight bonus of +13 to intelligence (+72 DC). Increase Duration by 4100% (+82) (to 35 days): Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), burn 1400 xp (-14) Final spellcraft DC: 143
(new spellcraft score is 139)

Lucky Mind
To Develop: Seed: fortify (23 DC) Factors: luck bonus of +14 to intelligence (+78 DC). Increase Duration by 4100% (+82) (to 35 days): Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), burn 1400 xp (-14) Final spellcraft DC: 149
(new spellcraft score is 146)

Circumstantial Mind
To Develop: Seed: fortify (23 DC) Factors: circumstance bonus of +15 to intelligence (+84 DC). Increase Duration by 4100% (+82) (to 35 days): Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), burn 1300 xp (-13) Final spellcraft DC: 156
(new spellcraft score is 154)

Morale Mind
To Develop: Seed: fortify (23 DC) Factors: morale bonus of +16 to intelligence (+90 DC). Increase Duration by 4100% (+82) (to 35 days): Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC), burn 1100 xp (-11) Final spellcraft DC: 164
(new spellcraft score is 162)

These mind spells add a total of 70 more points to Graz’zt’s intelligence, for a total of 188. New spellcraft score is 73+89= 162.

The spells he will research and cast while buffed have a DC of 172 or less (which would take 31 days to research, so can be learned within the time when he is fully buffed.) For the impregnable defense he needs 7 different spells. They all use the afflict seed, and since afflict is a mind-affecting, fear effect there may be ways of becoming immune to it. (Paladins have nothing to fear, for example!)

Sense Removal
To Develop: Seeds: Afflict (DC 14). Factors: change from target to 20-ft. radius area (+10 DC), increase area by 200% (+8 DC) good targets rendered blind, (+2 DC), allow subsequent castings to increase radius proportionally (ad hoc +20 DC), affects [good] subtype only (ad hoc –10 DC), permanent (x5 DC). Mitigating factor: increase casting time to 1 day 11 minutes (-22DC), burn 3,800 XP (-38DC). Final DC= 160

Similarly for the other senses.

Impose Penalty
To Develop: Seeds: Afflict (DC 14). Factors: change from target to 20-ft. radius area (+10 DC), good targets take –14 penalty each on attack rolls (+24 DC), allow subsequent castings to increase radius proportionally (ad hoc +20 DC), affects [good] subtype only (ad hoc –10 DC), permanent (x5 DC). Mitigating factor: increase casting time to 4 days 11 minutes (-28 DC), burn 9 000 XP (-90 DC). Final DC= 172

Similarly for saving throws.

As noted previously, I am breaking down Graz'zt's 15000 xp to about 2100 xp per day; and I am counting his amulet as providing 2000 xp for every spell that takes at least a day to cast.

I don't use backlash damage, as that is supposed to apply every round for the *duration* of the spell. (Note that Mostin's Intelligence buffs don't follow this guideline.) If Graz'zt were only going to be damaged once, his spells could be substantially more powerful! (fast healing 5 makes him recover in a few minutes).

I also do not have assistant spellcasters providing spell slots, or even demons making aid another checks. Given Graz'zt's association with witch's covens, and his predilection with having multiple companions, that seems a trifle arbitrary. Give him 6 lamia-sorceress 10s, and Graz'zt could easily arrange to have another 40 DC worth of effects in his epic spells.

[edit]slight tinkering with spells.[/edit]

 

[The Forsaken One]

And then we aren't even talking about what Soneillon could have done for him before she went renegade (or I believe she wasn't void then was she?) in regards of epic spells or the aid of some friendly demonprince/queen in order to vex Orcus or Demogorgon.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Two more days of buffing could send the rest of his stats through the roof:

Profane Boost
To Develop: Seed: fortify (17 DC) Factors: profane bonus of +47 to one ability score (+92 DC). Increase Duration by 4100% (+82) (to 35 days): Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC) Final spellcraft DC: 171

Likewise for Spell Resistance!

Note that on the days when Graz'zt is casting the mind suite of spells and profanely boosting his other abilities, he is quite free to do other things; they only take up 30 minutes per day. He probably spreads these spells through the month so that he will still be able to cast two epic spells on any given day.

His buffed stats will be:
Abilities:Str 73, Dex 77, Con 75, Int 188, Wis 69, Cha 96
Saves: Fort +52, Ref +55, Will +49

Save DCs for spells and spell-like abilities will be 53+spell level. His spell resistance is 85.

Combat-wise his stats are as follows:

Hit Dice: 36d8 +1152 (1314 hp)
Initiative: +37
Speed: 40 ft.
Armour Class: 68 (-1 size, +33 Dex, +6 insight, +13 natural, +7 shield), touch 48, flat-footed 35
Base Attack/Grapple: +36/+71
Attack: +5 acidic burst keen unholy bastard sword +71 melee (2d8 +36/15-20 plus 1d6 acid plus 1 vile)
Full Attack: +5 acidic burst keen unholy bastard sword +71/+66/+61/+56 melee (2d8 +36/15-20 plus 1d6 acid plus 1 vile)

Pretty awesome, huh? Unless the buffs are dispelled, Graz'zt will be quite a challenge to any opponent. He undoubtably knows some kind of epic counterspell to prevent a superb dispelling or greater magic from affecting him. Even so, it might be wise to tweak the spells so that they have a +5 bonus to resisting enemy dispel checks. That way they would work even in an anti-magic field. [edit]Oops. I'm thinking he's a 36th level caster. He's not- only 24th.[/edit]

Now think how different the situation would be if these epic buff spells were nerfed like the anibuff spells were? Instead of a base duration of 20 hours, they would have a base duration of 20 minutes, and none of this would be possible. [edit]Even 10 minutes/level base (so 200 minutes total) would work.[/edit]

 

[Greybar]

Now think how different the situation would be if these epic buff spells were nerfed like the anibuff spells were? Instead of a base duration of 20 hours, they would have a base duration of 20 minutes, and none of this would be possible.

To be honest, I think if there is one thing I've learned from this thread (and from finding the SRD version of the Epic Spells) is that it desperately needs such a power-down. I don't know if making the DC factor be nonlinear would also be necessary, but it seems like a good idea - perhaps basing on square of the bonus like the magic item creation rules.

john

 

[grodog]

Here's the suite of spells that I have been tinkering with. I suggest Graz'zt would buff his intelligence before researching and casting other spells such as the impregnable defense against the celestial host.

Waxing clarity is the first buff he casts, and only if he is not already buffed. Immediately upon completing it Graz'zt casts sustained clarity. Immediately after casting sustained clarity he casts the first 2 of the mind spells, and the following day he casts the other three. This gives the dark prince a 188 Intelligence indefinitely, provided he spends 4 days out of every 35 casting sustained clarity and the mind spells. (The mind spells can be cast at any time during the month). Note that thanks to his amulet, no 7 day period ever sees him spend more than 15 000 xp from his "float."

Here's a question in response to your machinations, Cheiromancer, that's really directed more at Sep vs. you, but feel free to chime in (anyone, of course): the methodical approach you describe above seems to me to reflect a more devilish approach vs. a demonic approach to spell casting. That is, min-maxing and loophole exploitation and finessing and refining such spells over time may be outside of Graz'zt's basic nature/character. Is this something that Graz'zt would do (vs. whether he can or should do it)?

Thus far in the SH, both Graz'zt and Soneillon have seemed to be rather organized, methodical, and meticulous in their approaches to waging war, conquering worlds, etc.; so, such spellcraft refinement may not necessarily be outside of the realm of possibility for these demonic/chaotic figures to pursue. It still doesn't feel right to me, though....

Thoughts?

 

[Cheiromancer]

Devilish discipline lies, I think, more in the respect of hierarchy and the willingness (occasionally) to subordinate one's needs and goals for the sake of the comunal task. Demon's lack that. However, a demon's focus on exploitation, finesse and refinement is not due to discipline, but rather to obsessive lust for personal power, glory and security. I think that is a fair description of any demon prince, but certainly Graz'zt.

Recall, too, that Graz'zt has a base intelligence of 35- that's higher than any other fiend in the BoVD. If anyone is going to start out to develop and use epic spells with intelligence, it will be him. Mostin certainly is capable of it, and his intelligence is "only" 28. Of course, once Graz'zt gets his intelligence into the triple digits he will certainly optimize his choices; and with his wisdom boosted to around 60+ you can pretty much be assured that he has the self-control and insight to follow through on his plans.

What I am wondering about now is why a horde of Graz'zt simulacra are not wreaking havoc on the multiverse... Anyone who would cast a single spell 50,000 times in a row is certainly capable of such a thing. It might be useful (as a house rule) to have a simulacrum work more like the epic spell eidolon. For instance, the caster has to split his soul to create a simulacrum, and so suffers a negative level for as long as the simulacrum exists.

 

[Greybar]

What I am wondering about now is why a horde of Graz'zt simulacra are not wreaking havoc on the multiverse.

a) Retaliation - same reason he doesn't do other massively bad unsubtle things.
b) Fear that eventually a simulcra would get out of control (See The Jester's Story Hour...)

john
p.s. edit: oh, and I entirely agree with Cheiro about Graz'zt's ability to focus his lust for power. One thing that did occur to me along the chaos/law side: when Graz'zt does facilitate translation would he surround himself by subordinates during his weakened time, or would he isolate himself out of fear that some of those subordinates would turn on him? That's where the real chaos/law thing can get nasty - a devil would be safer in surrounding himself with bonded loyal subordinates...