Eadric et. al. (The Paladin and his Friends).

Mmm.

I don't know that you can actually use ward to exclude epic spells. 10th level spells, yes. But epic spells are epic spells - they're only considered 10th level for purposes of save DCs.

Also, you cannot ward against (Su) effects - only spells and spell-likes. Graz'zt's mind blank is a (Su). Some ad hocs might be in order.
 

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Cheiromancer

Explorer
Sepulchrave II said:
Mmm.

I don't know that you can actually use ward to exclude epic spells. 10th level spells, yes. But epic spells are epic spells - they're only considered 10th level for purposes of save DCs.

I guess what I worrying about is the following possibility: suppose Graz'zt had designed an epic spell that worked like a permanent dimensional anchor on himself (but that could be suppressed at will, of course)- would such a thing have protected him from Fillein's spell?

If such a thing is impossible, then Call Graz'zt is a little easier to cast. But keeping Graz'zt bound becomes impossible, as there is no way to keep another epic spell from fetching him from whatever prison you put him into.

If it is possible to block an epic spell from conjuring you against your will, Graz'zt would certainly have researched it since the debacle with Fillein. That seems to render Fillein's legacy to Mostin kind of pointless.

So what to do? [edit]See next post[/edit]

Also, you cannot ward against (Su) effects - only spells and spell-likes. Graz'zt's mind blank is a (Su). Some ad hocs might be in order.

Fillein's spell has the ward seed and a +14 DC to specifically counteract mind blank. Mechanically it is in accord with the note on the bottom of page 101 in the ELH. If it wasn't to protect against Graz'zt's (Su) mind blank, what is it for?

BTW, Graz'zt's will save does not include his protection from spells ability, does it? His will save as a 36 hit dice outsider is +20, and he gets an additional +6 for having a 22 Wisdom. With a +8 resistance bonus from protection from spells that's +34. A wizard with a 28 Intelligence would give Fillein's version of Graz'zt a DC of 39. Not good odds, especially if Graz'zt is wearing a periapt of wisdom or some other save enhancing item.
 
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Cheiromancer

Explorer
Another possibility- Graz'zt could counterspell an attempt to conjure him. He has foresight, after all, and so has a moment's warning of an impending threat- and foresight tells him what, if anything, he can do about the threat.

You have to ready an action to counterspell- foresight might give him enough time to do this. Suppose the dispel were available as a free action. I don't think you have to ready a free action, but maybe add an ad hoc modifier to it so that (like feather fall) it can be cast when needed, even if it is not your turn. (+4 DC?) The rules for counterspelling say that the target of the spell being counterspelled must be within range- since that is Graz'zt himself, there is no problem.

Dispel, quickened, with no verbal or somatic components, at +50 on the caster level check, ad hoc +4 modifier, 10d6 backlash, DC 95. XP costs and more backlash can push this higher, but Call Graz'zt could just be cast again. Graz'zt can only cast an epic dispel three times per day. And greater dispelling, which he can cast at will, is a standard action, is probably too slow. Though he could use an epic dispel the first time, and then ready the greater dispelling. And he could probably step into an Antimagic Field if one were handy... According to p. 73 of the ELH such a field requires a dispel check to overcome (1d20+20 vs 11 + the epic spell's spellcaster level). Thus a ward spell against a 6th level spell overcomes an Antimagic Field only if it succeeds in the dispel check. A tweak to Call Graz'zt is definitely required to give it a bonus on dispel checks.

Interesting. Page 73 of the ELH also says

Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th level spells.

So a ward that is set to exclude spells of level 10 or lower should exclude them.

However the general rule seems to be that a caster level check is required when epic spells directly oppose each other. Look at the description of the conceal seed and how it opposes reveal, and how a spell with a ward seed works with regard to spells that have the seeds dispel or destroy. If an epic teleport is resisted by an epic dimensional anchor, you'd need to have an opposed CL check.

But what if one of the epic spells included a ward against 10th level spells? Maybe when two epic spells oppose each another, you give a substantial bonus (does +20 sound right?) on the opposed CL check to the one that includes the relevant ward.

Additionally, maybe Call Graz'zt can include the dispel seed in order to overcome opposing wards. Supernatural effects can be dispelled, so maybe that's the trick to getting past Graz'zt's mind blank. Is suppressing a supernatural ability also in the power of the dispel seed? Surely the combination of ward and dispel could do it. A dispel seed makes it easier to optimize versus opposing dispel effects, anyways.

So amend Call Graz'zt to read as follows (changes in bold):

To Develop: 90,000 gp; 2 days; 3600 XP. Seeds: Compel (DC 19), Dispel (DC 19); Summon (DC 14); Ward (DC 14). Factors: gain +16 bonus on caster level to defeat SR (+32 DC), ward effective against spells of 10th level or less (+180 DC), +10 on caster level to beat foe’s dispel effect (+10 DC), summon specific individual (+60 DC), full round action to cast (+18). Mitigating factors: primary caster sustains 42d6 backlash (-42 DC), six secondary casters each sustain 21d6 backlash (-126 DC), 6 additional participants contributing 9th level slots (-102 DC), caster burns 1300 xp (-16 DC), six secondary casters burn 1200 XP (-72 DC), 5000 gp cost (ad hoc -1 DC).

Add a line for the bonus to the dispel check if Graz'zt counterspells it, or is inside an Antimagic Field or the equivalent.

Sound better?
 

Lela

First Post
While I'm still a beginner in the Epic Magic system (and will be for some time), it occurs to me that you don't need a Spellcraft DC as low as 10 or 11. You could ease up somewhat on the backlash and bump the DC another 10 or 15.
 

Cheiromancer

Explorer
Lela- doing that would double the cost. Sepulchrave doesn't charge them actual gp to develop spells, but instead figures out what the treasure limit for a character of that level is, and then makes a "paper transaction." Doubling or tripling the cost of these spells might thus be a problem.
 


Cheiromancer

Explorer
The R&D costs of this suite of spells is starting to approach that of the original version that Fillein developed. And a spell to conceal and ward the bound Graz'zt is still undetermined. As a permanent spell, it will probably be considerable. Maybe it would be better to just kill him? Or sell him to another fiend?

That probably would not be wise. In fact, it might be *very* unwise to slay Graz'zt or allow him to pass into the control of another fiend. His absence will create a power vacuum, and whatever fills it could well be worse that Graz'zt was. Orcus, for instance, could take over Graz'zt's domains, and grow much more powerful than he already is. Without a war with Graz'zt to occupy his attention, the more-powerful Orcus could become a serious pain in the rear.

If Graz'zt is confined in a gem or something, then he can be released when his absence causes more trouble than his presence would. If he is dead or a soul-slave to Orcus, he can't be put back into play.

Hmmm. But those are story considerations. The worry here is about spell mechanics. There are threads going on in House rules that discuss this problem. Rather than further cluttering up this (already bloated) thread, I think I will continue the discussion there.
 
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Ridley's Cohort

First Post
Sepulchrave II said:
BUT (and this is important) there is an implicit assumption that demons and devils can advance (don't think in terms of HD or level, think simply in terms of power). In this regard, they differ from celestials (who were created thus, and no other way). Perhaps this is a result of their 'free will' - which comes at a price, obviously. The Fall is an archetypal event which is grounded in struggling against impossible odds, the assertion of will and ego etc.

A nice touch.

It is the nature of living, mortal beings to growth & die. Therefore the possibility of level advancement is a natural fit for such creatures.

That is not a reasonable assumption about powerful outsiders -- many of whom are manifestations of principles forming the fabric of the universe itself. It is purely a matter of DM judgement on how advancement does or does not apply to such outsiders.

How I would handle leveling...

If I were devising xp rules for powerful outsiders or gods, I would create the principle of XP Maintainence Costs. Any outsider that advances beyond its natural state must pay increasingly large amounts of xp to not slowly devolve back to the original state -- a kind of running faster and faster to stay in place. So powerful beings like Graz'zt would not usually be looking forward levelling; they look forward to greater resources invested to gain greater domains and thereby yet more resources.

Frex, Poseidon, God of the Sea, gains immense xp from worshippers and expends immense xp to maintain an iron grip on his domain. Since the actual calculus of the appropriate equations are both complicated and arbitrary, the net effect comes to Poseidon simply being the dominant sea god. It is his nature -- the equations are balanced by DM fiat.

From this approach, Graz'zt can "level" as well as "unlevel" depending on the long term extent of his domains. Whether such shifts were measurable within the time period of a few human lifetimes would be up to the DM.
 
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Moleculo

First Post
Out of curiosity, what level are our heros at the moment? I am thinking 5 levels higher than last update according to current trends in character update frequency?
 

Suldulin

First Post
Few questions if you've the time to answer Sep :) :

First off, do you mind Wyre being used as a base in a home game? 'tis a great world ye created (still think you should find a way to publish it as a campaign setting)
Thinking of setting it pre-Cynric's Death

Along a similiar line does Mostin's Player mind if Mostin is possibily used as an npc? Shall not do so if the player is not okay with that.

Next a few setting questions:
How do dwarves fit into the world, if at all?

Fourthly, can you give some more info on Thalassine and Shuth, mostly in cultural make up and the like please if possible?

Finally can you give some guidlines as to what is considered crimes in these era and the punishment associated? Am trying to figure out how things associating with devils would be punished if at all, yet am confused Shomei and her entry:
Despite the protestations of the Church of Oronthon – who found her understandably suspicious – Shomei lived in a manse near the city of Morne. The Temple was in no way assuaged by the fact that that the architectural style of the building was in many ways influenced by the palace of the Adversary in Nessus.

and finally don't think I can express this enough but Thank you very much for the time and for creating Wyre and the Storyhour :D
 
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