Eadric et. al. (The Paladin and his Friends).

[Noir]

Thin line

Epic spells are easy to exploit, but does that mean you should do it?
Yes, it seems pretty logical that there should exist epic spells that increases the caster's intelligence to "the size of a planet", but should you, as a DM, really allow it when it unbalances the game as much as it does?
I will not lie to you (or myself), I am quite a meta-gamer. But taking it to these hights, is it sane? It is interesting, yes, both from an IC and OOC perspective. But in this case I have to say the scales just weigh over to "unbalance".
For Sepulchrave and his group it is a little late at this point, since it has already been used by Mostin and his "coven" . Maybe set mutiple casters and experience sacrafice as a requirment to cast intelligence (or any ability score) boosting epic spells would be the solution? But then of course the experience point cushion makes that an easy requirment to fill for the greater extra-planar entities.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

These are tricky questions.

Sequential buffs can actually throw Graz'zt's Charisma into the high 200s if one allows for bonuses other than enhancement bonuses - and according to the description of the fortify seed it may be possible, depending on one's interpretation.

In the final analysis, it doesn't matter. Graz'zt is a (tough) CR30 challenge - let's say CR38 in his sanctum. If I manipulate the epic spell system in order to maximize his effectiveness, tweaking every possible mechanical nuance, I'm really kind of obligated to reappraise his CR - something I don't want to do.

As far as the bond Azzagrat sequence goes, they are flavour spells. They occurred in 'mythic time' if you like, and for me it was more of a feeling of 'how can I represent the power that Graz'zt holds over Azzagrat using ELH mechanics?' There was never a question of intentional maximization of his power. If Graz'zt spends thirty thousand years invoking a spell, it is as much a literary device as anything else - if I'd wanted the ward to extend to ten million miles, I could have given him a ten million year period of time. Or ten billion.

I think one of the problems that people have with the epic spell system (and, oddly, I don't any more) is that they see it in terms of building an effect from the ground upwards - in many ways it is almost impossible to resist min-maxing with it. It should be more of a:

"This is the effect I want to achieve, how can I justify it in terms of the epic system?"

Game balance - in its conventional sense - does not work at epic levels, plain and simple. It becomes much more of an intuitive exercise for the DM.


Cooperative spells are simply 'not in Graz'zt's nature.' They do not reflect who he is. Whether uber-buffs do or not is harder to qualify - I'm tempted to say that they don't, simply because I find uber-buffs vulgar.

For Sepulchrave and his group it is a little late at this point, since it has already been used by Mostin and his "coven"

To be fair to Dan, who devised the sequence, it was in an effort to make the web of motes comprehensible - the fortify seed does not allow bonuses to skills. Dan was, in fact, doing exactly what I do - justifying an effect (the ability to interpret the web of motes) in terms of raw mechanics. The fact that the raw mechanics also increase the save DCs of his spells (to 60? 70? - I don't remember) should not detract from the spell sequence. The level of trust which exists between player and DM is really no different from that which prevents the abuse of wish, Mord's disjunction, gate etc.

That's not to say that Mostin doesn't push the boundaries - he does. But Dan knows that if he pushed them too far, the game would collapse. Likewise, if I flung dozens of disjunction hurling arcanaloths at the party, they'd know about it pretty soon.

 

[Roman]

Sepulchrave II, I would like to ask, if possible, about one apsect of your game's philosophy with respect to demons and devils. As is clear from the story, the demons and devils are fallen celestials. Now, that means they are billions of years old (how old is your world BTW?) and I would be interested in knowing whether all demons and devils are this old. Do they all originate from the fall, or are new demons and devils (or celestials for that matter) being created/born/whatever even after the fall? In the 'standard' D&D cosmology, I recall that souls could be transformed into demons and devils from larvae... is it the same in your world?

Also, if all demons and devils originate from before the fall billions of years ago it implies two things:

1) Their numbers must be significantly lower now - after all they have been waging war for a very long time. Naturally, if their numbers were infinite than this is not too much of an issue.

2) Well, after billions of years, even the lowliest demons and devils that survived would acquire so much 'experience' that they would be utterly undefeatable by mortals. So, I suspect, that in your world demons and devils cannot advance (either by HD, or by type of demon, or by class/level) - they remain at the same power they were created at to begin with. But then again, I remember that Neahel advanced as a contemplative and if demons and devils could not advance, it would take away their ambition...

How do you resolve these? I suppose you could just leave them unexplained, but judging from your other explanations, I think you would not be satisfied with doing so, so I am guessing you have it covered somehow.

Thanks!

 

[Cheiromancer]

It's an interesting situation. Several aspects of epic spells have come to light so far in the story hour, and all are quite appropriate: allowing Mostin and co. to interpret the web of motes; giving Soneillon a super-high Charisma; providing lots of flavor spells for Graz'zt; binding an Infernal, etc.. But a system that allows these elements to simultaneously exist seems to yield highly undesirable results like the buffing suite I describe above.

One way to deal with the situation is to employ a highly developed sense of intuition to recognize what spells are appropriate to the campaign, and weed out the bad ones in a way that makes sense. (By appeals to mythic time, character fit, and so on.) Another way is to tinker with the rules to allow the desirable spells, but not things like the suite I wrote for Graz'zt. This, of course, is easier said than done.

At the very least, my exercise in buffing Graz'zt should be a warning to anyone using Epic Spell Design with an "anything goes" attitude.


p.s.

You haven't posted the stats for the web of motes yet, have you? Or are they still sketchy?

 

[Sepulchrave II]

As is clear from the story, the demons and devils are fallen celestials. Now, that means they are billions of years old (how old is your world BTW?) and I would be interested in knowing whether all demons and devils are this old. Do they all originate from the fall, or are new demons and devils (or celestials for that matter) being created/born/whatever even after the fall? In the 'standard' D&D cosmology, I recall that souls could be transformed into demons and devils from larvae... is it the same in your world?

The basic assumption is that all fell. This is treading on dangerous ground, however - I'm generally disinclined to make stark metaphysical assertions like this from a metagame perspective. It might be true for an Oronthonian, but there is overlap with other belief systems as well, and they hold different ideas. What is true in the campaign world today, may not have been five thousand years ago - before the Church of Oronthon came to prominence, or before the name of 'Oronthon' was even heard. I believe this is intimated in one of the exchanges between Eadric and Titivilus - that Oronthon has somehow changed (and continues to change) what transpired in the past. This itself might be true from Eadric's point of view, but isn't necessarily true from Nwm's or Mostin's, of course. Not all truths are unequal, and all that.

1) Their numbers must be significantly lower now - after all they have been waging war for a very long time. Naturally, if their numbers were infinite than this is not too much of an issue.

I think, for practical purposes, we're talking in terms of relative infinities. But ultimately, a rational inquiry such as this is doomed to fail - reason is incapable of penetrating cosmic mysteries. From a meta-game viewpoint, it was precisely this kind of unanswerable question which led to the in-game importance of mysticism and the dialectical process.

2) Well, after billions of years, even the lowliest demons and devils that survived would acquire so much 'experience' that they would be utterly undefeatable by mortals. So, I suspect, that in your world demons and devils cannot advance (either by HD, or by type of demon, or by class/level) - they remain at the same power they were created at to begin with. But then again, I remember that Neahel advanced as a contemplative and if demons and devils could not advance, it would take away their ambition...

Now I think that you are metagaming - you need to reverse your perspective. If I want to describe a succubus who is 'exceptionally eloquent, sneaky, and quick' I might give her 10 rogue levels. This is not to say that she has advanced to a 10th level rogue in any conventional sense - merely that she is exceptionally eloquent, sneaky and quick, and giving her 10 levels of rogue is the best way to represent this mechanically. In the same vein, Eadric is not half-celestial - he merely exhibits powers for which the half-celestial template is a convenient (and, apparently ECL-balanced) device.

BUT (and this is important) there is an implicit assumption that demons and devils can advance (don't think in terms of HD or level, think simply in terms of power). In this regard, they differ from celestials (who were created thus, and no other way). Perhaps this is a result of their 'free will' - which comes at a price, obviously. The Fall is an archetypal event which is grounded in struggling against impossible odds, the assertion of will and ego etc.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

One way to deal with the situation is to employ a highly developed sense of intuition to recognize what spells are appropriate to the campaign, and weed out the bad ones in a way that makes sense. (By appeals to mythic time, character fit, and so on.)

I don't really see this as any different to the controls that a DM routinely needs to place on his or her game in order to make it work.

If you are DMing a 'Dark Ages' campaign - with byrnies, pattern-welded swords, skalds, ogres etc., you don't want a PC wandering around in a suit of full plate with a masterwork halberd and a compound bow - it doesn't fit. If the player appeals to the rules by saying 'but it says I can buy these for X gold,' you merely point out that it doesn't gel with the campaign you have created.

You could, of course, make extensive lists of house-rules in order to cover these contingencies. But why bother? Just make rulings on a case-by-case basis, and save yourself the hassle. You want a rapier? - No. You want a scimitar? - hmm, maybe. But that means I'll have to give some thought to culture XYZ - which I'd hoped to put off for a while. Sigh. (But the player also stimulates the DM to creativity, which is a good thing.)

Same goes for epic spells. Although I'm sure I (and many others) could, I just don't have the time to devise a better system at the moment.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Your viewpoint has evolved a bit over the last 8 months. Last August you thought that the demands on DM intuition and responsibility were a bit high. Let's see....

So much of the epic spell system is intuitive - not a bad thing, necessarily, and it kind of encourages the DM to be conscious of possible abuses and/or failures to exploit the system to a reasonable degree. But I feel that it might put too much responsibility on the DM - and its not often that I say that. The possibilities for game-breaking spells are actually just as staggering as poorly developed ones.

 

[Roman]

The basic assumption is that all fell. This is treading on dangerous ground, however - I'm generally disinclined to make stark metaphysical assertions like this from a metagame perspective. It might be true for an Oronthonian, but there is overlap with other belief systems as well, and they hold different ideas. What is true in the campaign world today, may not have been five thousand years ago - before the Church of Oronthon came to prominence, or before the name of 'Oronthon' was even heard. I believe this is intimated in one of the exchanges between Eadric and Titivilus - that Oronthon has somehow changed (and continues to change) what transpired in the past. This itself might be true from Eadric's point of view, but isn't necessarily true from Nwm's or Mostin's, of course. Not all truths are unequal, and all that.

Very interesting - I did not catch the fact that Oronthon still changes from Eadric's conversation with Titivilus (which, IMO is possibly the best piece of roleplaying I have seen... ever [and my favourite installment of the story]), though it did seem apparent that he changed in the past. As to the multiple truths, yes that is a nice and unique feature of your campaign. However, I do think that as the players advance higher in the 'cosmological hierarchy', it will increasingly become necessary to define more and more 'truths as true', since they will be interacting with them at a daily basis (well, I suppose they already do that to a significant extent).

I think, for practical purposes, we're talking in terms of relative infinities. But ultimately, a rational inquiry such as this is doomed to fail - reason is incapable of penetrating cosmic mysteries. From a meta-game viewpoint, it was precisely this kind of unanswerable question which led to the in-game importance of mysticism and the dialectical process.

Ok - this is a fair explanation. I just generally tend to try to understand D&D stories & campaigns from both the in-game and the meta-game perspective. Sort of like what you did with Gra'atz (sp?) flavour spells - you still felt the need to express them in terms of D&D mechanics.

Now I think that you are metagaming - you need to reverse your perspective. If I want to describe a succubus who is 'exceptionally eloquent, sneaky, and quick' I might give her 10 rogue levels. This is not to say that she has advanced to a 10th level rogue in any conventional sense - merely that she is exceptionally eloquent, sneaky and quick, and giving her 10 levels of rogue is the best way to represent this mechanically. In the same vein, Eadric is not half-celestial - he merely exhibits powers for which the half-celestial template is a convenient (and, apparently ECL-balanced) device.

BUT (and this is important) there is an implicit assumption that demons and devils can advance (don't think in terms of HD or level, think simply in terms of power). In this regard, they differ from celestials (who were created thus, and no other way). Perhaps this is a result of their 'free will' - which comes at a price, obviously. The Fall is an archetypal event which is grounded in struggling against impossible odds, the assertion of will and ego etc.

That is the meta-game explanation I was looking for - celestials are static, while devils and demons can advance (though not in HD [but why not level?]).

 

[Greybar]

If I want to describe a succubus who is 'exceptionally eloquent, sneaky, and quick' I might give her 10 rogue levels. This is not to say that she has advanced to a 10th level rogue in any conventional sense - merely that she is exceptionally eloquent, sneaky and quick, and giving her 10 levels of rogue is the best way to represent this mechanically. In the same vein, Eadric is not half-celestial - he merely exhibits powers for which the half-celestial template is a convenient (and, apparently ECL-balanced) device.

Thank you Sep. I've found that thoughts about this (and the Graz'zt stuff) keep resurfacing for a couple days now, and I think it helps me take a step to resolve my mechanics-minded nature and story-minded nature.

I guess I would say that I have recourse to the rules to stay fair to myself and the players. That shared reality of the rules is the sole purpose of the rules, nothing more. Well, that and the fact that sometimes when I read rules or spells or etc it inspires me into a story line.

john

 

[Cheiromancer]

I turned my thoughts to the question of binding Graz'zt, and came up with the following suite of spells. They are all optimized around the idea of a coven of 6 high level wizards (as Fillein's version is). Toughness of Body is to help soak up backlash damage, while Sharpness of Wit is to make subsequent spells almost impossible to save against. The Sphere of Irresistable Magic and Mist of Dreams are centred on the thaumaturgic diagram where Graz'zt is to be called. Unless Graz'zt has buffed himself quite extensively, he will find his SR sharply reduced, and thus will be unable to resist the Mist of Dreams. The latter spell should render Graz'zt utterly catatonic (and therefore helpless). If it does not, he might actually be able to escape.

Rather than keying the ward seed to overcome mind-blank, it overcomes all magical protections of up to 10th level (i.e. epic spells and below). I figure that in the time since Graz'zt's first binding he may have developed magical countermeasures against being called unwillingly. Such (hypothetical) protections are ineffective against this version of Call Graz'zt.

Call Graz'zt has a brief duration, so his captors will wish to act quickly to finally dispose of him. Binding or Trap the Soul are both possibilities. Or a character with a Wisdom of at least 33 could enter the Mist of Dreams and chop off his head (coup de grace).

The full sequence requires 6 each of 5th, 7th, 8th and 9th level spells, and 5 epic spells. One 21st level epic spellcaster could cast all the spells over the period of three days; Toughness of Body and Sharpness of Wit can be cast on 6 pm of day 1, the circle can be prepared with Mist of Dreams and Sphere of Irresistable Magic at 1 pm of day 2, and Toughness of Body and Call Graz'zt can be cast at 8am of day 3.

Three epic casters working in parallel could research the spells in only 4 days, for a cost of "only" 468 000 gp.

Toughness of Body
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 11
Components: V, S, Ritual
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: 0 ft.
Area: 20-ft radius sphere centred on you
Duration: 20 hours
To Develop: 99,000 gp; 2 days; 3960 XP. Seed: fortify (DC17). Factors: grant additional +39 enhancement bonus to ability score (+78 DC), 1-round casting time (+18 DC), change from touch to target (+4 DC), change from target to area (+10 DC). Mitigating factors: 6 secondary casters contribute 7th level slots (-78 DC).

All characters within a 20-ft radius circle centred upon the caster gain a +40 enhancement bonus to Constitution, with the appropriate changes to hit points and Fortitude savings.

Sharpness of Wit
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 11
Components: V, S, Ritual
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: 0 ft.
Area: 20-ft radius sphere centred on you
Duration: 60 hours
To Develop: 99,000 gp; 2 days; 3960 XP. Seed: fortify (DC17). Factors: grant additional +63 enhancement bonus to ability score (+126 DC), 1-round casting time (+18 DC), change from touch to target (+4 DC), change from target to area (+10 DC); +200% duration (+4 DC). Mitigating factors: primary caster sustains 42d6 backlash (-42 DC), six secondary casters each sustain 21d6 backlash (-126 DC).

All characters within a 20-ft radius circle centred upon the caster gain a +64 enhancement bonus to Intelligence. Wizards thus enjoy a bonus of +32 to the DC of their spells.

Sphere of Irresistable Magic
Enchantment (Compulsion)
Spellcraft DC: 10
Components: V, S, Ritual
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: 300 ft.
Area: 20-ft radius sphere
Duration: 20 hours
Saving Throw: Yes (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (see text)
To Develop: 90,000 gp; 2 days; 3600 XP. Seed: afflict (DC 14); ward (DC 14). Factors: Additional 29 point penalty (+116 DC), +32 to caster level checks to overcome Spell Resistance (+64 DC), 1-round casting time (+18 DC), change from target to area (+10 DC), effective vs mind blank (+14 DC). Mitigating factors: primary caster sustains 30d6 backlash (-30 DC), six secondary casters each sustain 15d6 backlash (-90 DC), six secondary casters contribute 8th level spell slots (-120 DC).

Creatures within the Sphere of Irresistable Magic suffer a -30 penalty to their SR for as long as they remain there. The creature's spell resistance must be overcome (check only once), with the caster gaining a +32 to the caster level check. A will save also applies (DC 20 + caster's ability modifier), but each round that they remain within the Sphere of Irresistable Magic they must succeed at the saving throw – failure indicates that they suffer the effects until they leave it. Leaving and then re-entering the zone prompts a further saving throw.

Mist of Dreams
Enchantment (Compulsion)
Spellcraft DC: 10
Components: V, S, Ritual
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: 300 ft.
Area: 20-ft radius sphere
Duration: 20 hours
Saving Throw: Yes (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (see text)
To Develop: 90,000 gp; 2 days; 3600 XP. Seed: afflict (DC 14); ward (DC 14). Factors: Additional 31 point penalty (+124 DC), 1-round casting time (+18 DC), change from target to area (+10 DC), effective vs mind blank (+14 DC). Mitigating factors: primary caster sustains 30d6 backlash (-30 DC), six secondary casters each sustain 15d6 backlash (-90 DC), six secondary casters contribute 5th level spell slots (-54 DC).

The forces of the unconscious are released to overwhelm affected creatures with powerful waking dreams. If a creature's SR is overcome and their will save failed (DC 20+ caster's ability modifier), they suffer a -32 penalty to their Wisdom scores for as long as they remain within the affected area. Each round that they remain within the Mist of Dreams they must succeed at the saving throw – failure indicates that they suffer the effects until they leave it. Leaving and then re-entering the zone prompts a further saving throw.

Call Graz’zt
Conjuration (Summoning)
Spellcraft DC: 10
Components: V, S, M, Ritual, XP
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: 75 ft.
Effect: One summoned demon prince
Duration: 20 rounds (and see below)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 90,000 gp; 2 days; 3600 XP. Seeds: Compel (DC 19), Summon (DC 14); Ward (DC 14). Factors: gain +16 bonus on caster level to defeat SR (+32 DC), ward effective against all magic (+180 DC), summon specific individual (+60 DC), full round action to cast (+18). Mitigating factors: primary caster sustains 42d6 backlash (-42 DC), six secondary casters each sustain 21d6 backlash (-126 DC), 6 additional participants contributing 9th level slots (-102 DC), each caster burns 800 XP (-56 DC), 5000 gp cost (ad hoc -1 DC).

In a brief ritual requiring six additional participants, the spellcaster conjures and confines the demon prince Graz’zt into a readied thaumaturgic diagram. This diagram takes a day to draw, requires a DC 40 spellcraft check to complete successfully (the caster may take 10), and requires 5000 gp in special materials (powdered diamonds).

Graz'zt is entitled to a Will saving throw (DC 20+ relevant ability modifier) in order to resist being called. He can make two attempts to escape from the diagram (and break the spell) by first making a successful Charisma check (DC 30 + 1/2 caster level + caster's charisma modifier), and then by pitting his spell resistance against the caster's caster level check. Note that the caster receives a +16 bonus to his caster level when making this check. Graz’zt’s continual mind blank ability and other magical protections are ineffective against this spell.

Once Graz’zt is successfully confined he may not leave the diagram without aid, nor may he use any of his spells, or supernatural or spell-like abilities. He will remain quiescent, but may still communicate normally with those outside of the diagram. Any attack upon him constitutes a negation of the original compulsion, and he will be free to attack or flee if he survives it. If the circle is broken, the spell is similarly ended.

This spell does not last long enough for Graz'zt to be coerced into service, or for him to make additional attempts to escape. The compulsion binding him to the diagram expires after only 2 minutes. At then point (or earlier, if the spell is broken before then) Graz'zt is free to do as he pleases.