Easy one, I promise

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Doesn't it bothers anyone that this improvement in threat range is not calculated like 2 number sis a dobule threat then you double it for a rtiple, thus 18-20?

I don't understand.

For a rapier:

Normal Threat Range: 18-20 (3 chances out of 20)
Doubled Threat Range (Keen or Improved Crit): 15-20 (6 chances out of 20)
Tripled Threat Range (Keen and Improved Crit): 12-20 (9 chances out of 20)

 

[coyote6]

I think he's counting a 19-20 threat range as a "double threat range" (presumably because it's double the "default" threat range of 20).

 

[Crothian]

Except that it is a factor, of course, because they are roughly the same so long as the two stack.

When they no longer stack, they are no longer roughly the same.

Choosing a rapier over a longsword - or a falchion over a greatsword - is then a mechanically inferior choice.

I just don't see it. One does a point of damage more on average, the other crits 5% more (threat to crit anyway) and has can be used with weapon finess using Dex, the most powerful stat. The ability to finess a rapier is huge.

 

[Coredump]

Hmmm... I haven't spent too much time reading SKR's rant...but I think I can already see flaws in his logic, and in his math.

First, to compare the benefits of stacking imp crit and keen (et al) it is not a good idea to compare greatsword and rapier. Rapier allows a shield. Should compare a longsword and rapier. (or something more 'equivalent')

Second, to say the critical is "just another d6, whoopee" is very off the mark, it is also adding str, and magic bonus, and feat damage, and etc.

I may deconstruct his arguments more later... but they seem quite a bit off base


(Okay, I jumped back and see he did do a longsword/rapier comparison.... I will have to look into this....)

 

[Crothian]

I like how he compaires weapons with different enchantment to prove his point. All it does is prove that the enchanments are not equal. and he totally ignore that the rapier can be used with WF a significant ability

 

[Storyteller01]

It stacks on all of them ... in 3.0. They changed it in 3.5 - and, really, shouldn't have.

HERE HERE!!!!!

 

[Storyteller01]

The question then asked would be why should a weapon like the rapier complete with a weapon like a greatsword?

joe b.

Players choice in style? Also, if you read Martial Arts in Renaissance Europe you see wood cuts depicting techniques for rapiers against two-handed and bastard swords. Rapier wins (due to its speed). Nice stuff.

 

[Storyteller01]

They *are* roughly the same. The rapier trades base damage dice for an expanded crit range. The battleaxe trades crit range for an expanded crit multiplier.

Basically, you're asking someone whether they want to crit slightly more often, normally with more average damage, or crit harder but less often.

Let's not forget the Power Attack/Improved Critical paths that wre negated by that change. Heck, Two handed swords actually saw an improvement!

 

[Staffan]

I just don't see it. One does a point of damage more on average, the other crits 5% more (threat to crit anyway) and has can be used with weapon finess using Dex, the most powerful stat. The ability to finess a rapier is huge.

Looking at math, using similar abilities for both weapons:

A "plain" (no improved crit or keen) Rapier does 1d6+x damage on a hit, and 15% of hits (ignoring the cases where you won't hit on 18+) are crits that do double damage. So average damage per hit is 1.15(3.5+x), or 4.025 + 1.15x.
A plain longsword does 1d8+x damage, and 10% of hits are crits. So average damage is 1.10(4.5+x) = 4.95 + 1.10x.

So, how much of a bonus do you need to do the same average damage with both?
4.025+1.15x = 4.95+1.15x
0.05x = 0.875
x = 17.5

So, if your total bonuses to damage are 17 or less, a plain longsword is better than a plain rapier. Let's look at the case where you have one crit enhancement (improved crit OR keen).
Rapier does average (3.5+x)*1.30 = 4.55 + 1.30x
Longsword does average (4.5+x)*1.20 = 5.4 + 1.20x
Equalling them gives
4.55 + 1.30x = 5.4 + 1.20x
0.10x = 0.85
x = 8.5

And with a double crit enhancement (improved crit that stacks with keen), we get
Rapier does average (3.5+x)*1.45 = 5.075 + 1.45x
Longsword does average (4.5+x)*1.30 = 5.85 + 1.30x
5.075 + 1.45x = 5.85 + 1.30x
0.15x = 0.775
x = 5.17

Getting a damage bonus of +18 is pretty heavy-duty stuff. A damage bonus of +9 is doable, especially at the levels you get Improved Crit or feel like you should be splashing out on an ability like Keen - +4 for Strength, +2 for specialization, and then some things like prayer on top of that. A damage bonus of +6 is quite easy to get.

But that's not really showing the whole picture. In my first example, I ignored the extreme cases where you only hit on a 19 or 20, because those reduce the utility of the rapier compared to the longsword (because of wasted threat range). That's a good approximation, because you won't often be facing things that hard to hurt. However, in the more advanced examples, you have a threat range of 12+ on the rapier. It's not at all inconceivable that you could encounter monsters with an AC that requires rolls higher than that, especially on iterative attacks. So the damage for the rapier is slightly inflated on those levels. Plus, there are all those monsters who don't care about crits.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I like how he compaires weapons with different enchantment to prove his point.

Yes, heaven forbid he should compare two +2 weapons!

and he totally ignore that the rapier can be used with WF a significant ability

And longswords can be used in two hands to gain additional Strength bonuses, as well as benefit from 2-for-1 Power Attack, a significant ability.

Rapier: You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you. You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage.