Easy one, I promise

[jgbrowning]

Players choice in style? Also, if you read Martial Arts in Renaissance Europe you see wood cuts depicting techniques for rapiers against two-handed and bastard swords. Rapier wins (due to its speed). Nice stuff.

I've also seen woodcuts showing men with faces where their bellies should be. I'm a bit familiar with medieval stuff and I believe the rapier only developed into a martial weapon (as opposed to a courtly weapon) because people stopped wearing armor due gunpowder. It's not a weapon designed to face high medieval armor and is ineffectual against such in comparison with weapons such as maces, longswords, and hammers. In other words, it's (as you point out) a weapon of the Renaissance, not the period where people ran around in plate armor.

This isn't a denegration of the rapier. You simply can't use the wrong weapon and expect a good result. For what it is supposed to do the rapier is very effective (that's why it lasted so long), but bypassing armor isn't what it's supposed to do.

Which makes me wonder why they gave it such a high crit threat range to begin with. Personally, the weapons designed to bypass high armor (picks, maces, morningstars) should be the ones with high crit threats because Crit Threat Ranges should have been assigned based upon high ACs, not effectiveness vrs unarmored opponents. Anyway, no matter how much damage a rapier can do to with a solid hit against an unarmored opponent, it'll pale in comparison with what a two-hander would do with a solid hit.

joe b.

 

[Storyteller01]

The wood cut in question is one of very good quality (even has effect use of shading!!). It was also done for one of the few training manuals to be printed (let alone survive) at the time.

As for the crit, I agree in the realist aspect. But the whole point of using one is the image of swashbucklers killing with a single stab into a vital area. It's the image man, THE IMAGE.


The show 'Earth: Final Conflict' made good use of rapier tactics and futurist rapiers in one episode.

 

[Jdvn1]

The old 3.0 Weapon Master PrC could. I think he's been reinvisioned as the Kensai in Complete Warrior.

According the big list WotC put on their site a while ago, it was updated as the Exotic Weapon Master.

... Which doesn't make sense to me.

 

[jgbrowning]

The wood cut in question is one of very good quality (even has effect use of shading!!). It was also done for one of the few training manuals to be printed (let alone survive) at the time.

Agreed, rapier is not effective in mass armored combat (although there is a rapier designed to puncture a specific style of breast plate), but it is an excellent dueling weapon (or trial by combat weapon, for the time).

As for the crit, I agree in the realist aspect. But the whole point of using one is the image of swashbucklers killing with a single stab into a vital area. It's the image man, THE IMAGE.

No conflict from me about the image aspect. I just think that the image would be better suited by making all the weapons of the same class (martial, simple, exotic) equally effective than by trying to make the weapons "differently equally effective." Seems like a waste of time, a source of contention, and a limitation, as opposed to an opportunity for any person's preferred playing style.

joe b.

 

[Storyteller01]

Tends to add to the uniqueness of the character, I believe. Fighters who specialize in one weapon/style tend to be more memorable than a guy who picks up a stack of numbers and starts rolling. And certain weapons are more effective with a given style.

My two cents though.

 

[Corsair]

Comparing the longsword and rapier is completely different than comparing the Falchion and Greatsword. With stacking, the falchion blows the greatsword away, especially now that they both get 2-1 power attacking. The drop in average damage dice is insignificant past about level 6, compared to the ability to double your power attack and bonus strength damage.

 

[Arkhandus]

Improved Critical and Keen stacked in 3.0 D&D, but do not stack in 3.5.

You know, a rapier with its low base damage, low crit multiplier, and high crit range really is inferior to a battleaxe overall if you don't allow Keen and Improved Critical to stack..... Battleaxes have a higher base damage and will hurt most creatures more, and more often, whereas the rapier is only optimal for fighting creatures that are crit-able. Considering that undead, oozes, constructs, and similar creatures aren't altogether uncommon or rare in a typical campaign, this means that more often than not, not only is the battleaxe dealing more damage per hit, it's being more effective against enemies that can't be critted, whereas the pathetic rapier (or scimitar for that matter) is only on equal grounds when you're facing opponents who are subject to critical hits.

And don't forget that no matter how huge your threat range, it doesn't matter if your attack bonus isn't high enough to confirm the critical hit. Considering that the battleaxe's higher crit multiplier and base damage are balanced by its minimal threat range (20), it's going to be getting critical hits less often than a rapier, true, but that also means that it's much less likely that a battleaxe will waste any of its would-be critical hits on enemies that aren't subject to crits.

The issue of Weapon Finesse is irrelevant. Taking Weapon Finesse just means that you'll use Dex for attack rolls, but you're only likely to take it if your Str is inferior, meaning you'll still be doing much less damage than a more typical warrior. You may hit just as often as the common Str-based weapon wielder, but you'll do less damage and overall won't be significantly aided. You're better off putting your high score into Str and neglecting Dex, you'll get more out of it unless you've got a very efficient plan for skyrocketing your unarmored AC.

And besides, with Weapon Finesse, you won't be able to effectively use a shield in your off-hand, so the rapier with WFin isn't really as good as a longsword with large/heavy shield. At best, going Dex-based with WFin and a rapier may very marginally boost your AC more than a sword-and-board fighter, but only until the sword-and-boarder starts getting an enhancement bonus for his shield, at which point your pitiful attempt at high AC with no shield and meager or mediocre armor will be realized for its true mediocrity.

Sword-and-boarder at high level: AC 35 through 16 Dex, mithral full plate +5, and mithral tower shield +5. Dex-monkey at high level: AC 25 through 22 Dex and mithral chain shirt +5. The benefits of boosting Dex to the maximum could get you up to perhaps a 34 Dex or so, for +12 AC, but it isn't as effective as the +15 AC from mithral chain shirt and 22 Dex. If you use a buckler +5, then you get AC 31, still not as good as the sword-and-board fighter with his AC 35. And still dealing lower damage due to less Str. This is of course before dodge, deflection, luck, insight, natural armor, and similar bonuses, but both kinds of warrior can benefit from those equally (with a rare few exceptions, which, for their costs/limitations, don't really make the Dex-monkey better than the sword-and-boarder, though they may equalize them at significant expense and specialization of the Dex-monkey).

Since Weapon Finesse doesn't allow the character to effectively use a decent shield, it doesn't really make the rapier equivalent to a longsword or battleaxe, and a better comparison is with the greatsword, since they also don't allow effective use of a shield. The rapier may be only a one-handed (or in 3.0, Medium) weapon, but in order to use it effectively, the character must follow the limitations of two-handed weapons (no good shield use, can't use off-hand) but without reaping the benefits (of greater base damage, and 1.5x Str bonus to damage, and larger size for purposes of disarming, HP, and such).

In summation: Wielders of rapiers, scimitars, and falchions need Improved Critical and Keen to stack if they're going to effectively compete with sword-and-boarders or greatsword-wielders.

 

[Coredump]

Okay, before I get into whether I think Keen and IC should stack....

SKR's rant is pathetic. His logic is flawed, and is math is just plain wrong.

First: His continual rant about crits being "100% confimred" or "75% confirmed" is just balderdash. We are calculating average damage per *hit*, not per attack. The math fact is that a crit range of 18-20 will have a confirmed crit on 15% of the *hits*. IOW, the numbers he uses for "100% confirmed" is the actual correct number. The garbage he spouts about "optimum..." and "75%" is wrong and misleading. (okay, there is a slight caveat. the percentage will be *slightly* less, for those times when an 18 or 19 don't hit.)

Second: The bit about the first attack being 'optimum' for the crit, and the iterative ones being less likely to hit....ARGH! They are also less likely to *hit*. But the same math facts exist, on average the crit will happen 15% of the time. (Slightly larger caveat, it is a *bit* more likely that an 18 or 19 will not hit on the iterative attacks.)

Third: Rapiers cannot be used to get 1.5 str. bonus

Fourth:He acts like a str of 24 is a really hard number to get for a 10+ lvl fighter to get.

Fifth: He compares Imp Crit with weap spec, forgeting that weap spec makes crit even better. (as do all things that add to the base damage)

Sixth: In the Greatsword comparison, he totally ignores the enchantment bonus to damage.

Seventh: He is comparing weapons, not abilities. The Rapier is not known for dealing damage, it is known for being finessable. Either try several weapons to see if they can max out, or try the same weapon with various enchantment combinations. Some weapons are just plain better, the longsword will always do more damage than the flail.... except against skeletons.

(There are more issues when reviewing the original rant...but this should be enough.)

I am not saying that they should not stack, my preliminary math shows that it just isn't that big of a deal. But for someone that claims "designed to be by the original core designers, who crunched all the numbers" he does a pathetically bad job of 'crunching the numbers'.

At some point I will finish my geek out and try some other combinations to see how the real math works out. (Staffan has already done a pretty good job.)

 

[Coredump]

And besides, with Weapon Finesse, you won't be able to effectively use a shield in your off-hand,

Sword-and-boarder at high level: AC 35 through 16 Dex, mithral full plate +5, and mithral tower shield +5. Dex-monkey at high level: AC 25 through 22 Dex and mithral chain shirt +5. The benefits of boosting Dex to the maximum could get you up to perhaps a 34 Dex or so, for +12 AC, but it isn't as effective as the +15 AC from mithral chain shirt and 22 Dex. If you use a buckler +5, then you get AC 31, still not as good as the sword-and-board fighter with his AC 35.

Since Weapon Finesse doesn't allow the character to effectively use a decent shield, it doesn't really make the rapier equivalent to a longsword or battleaxe, and a better comparison is with the greatsword, since they also don't allow effective use of a shield.

I won't bother with most of you math. But you base assumption is wrong.

You can use a shield with Weap Fin. You an use a masterwork small shield with no penalty, and you can use a mithral large shield with no penalty. So there should be a whopping AC difference of 2 from using the +5 tower shield or the +5 large shield..

And with that full plate and tower shield, even if mithral, you are totally screwed if you have to climb, or balance, or run, or jump, etc.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Taken out of order:

First: His continual rant about crits being "100% confimred" or "75% confirmed" is just balderdash. ... The math fact is that a crit range of 18-20 will have a confirmed crit on 15% of the *hits*. IOW, the numbers he uses for "100% confirmed" is the actual correct number. The garbage he spouts about "optimum..." and "75%" is wrong and misleading. (okay, there is a slight caveat. the percentage will be *slightly* less, for those times when an 18 or 19 don't hit.)

...

SKR's rant is pathetic. His logic is flawed, and is math is just plain wrong.

And yet, yours is, as well.

A rapier will not confirm its critical on 15% of "hits." That's crazy talk.

A rapier *threatens* a critical 15% of the time - assuming you don't need more than an 18 to hit. It will confirm its critical 95% of the time - assuming anything but a 1 will hit.

We are calculating average damage per *hit*, not per attack.

Which is a faulty way of doing things. Rather, you should calculate expected damage per attack.

IOW, the expected damage for a given attack is:

(Chance of Normal Hit * Expected Normal Damage) + (Chance of Confirmed Critical * Expected Critical Damage) = Expected Damge per Attack

Let's assume a rapier and a longsword, both used with a damage bonus of +X. Expected Normal Damage and Expected Critical Damage are thus easy to calculate:

END(R): 3.5 + X
END(L): 4.5 + X
ECD(R): 7 + 2X
ECD(L): 9 + 2X

Chance of Hit: MIN(95%, (AC-AB)/20)
Chance of Threat: MIN(Chance of Hit, Threat Range)
Chance of Confirmed Critical: Chance of Threat * Chance of Hit
Chance of Normal Hit: Chance of Hit - Chance of Confirmed Critical

Now, assuming you hit on anything but a 1 (i.e., Chance of Hit = 95%), then the expected damage for an attack with a Rapier is 14.7 damage per hit - when X is equal to 10. For the longsword in the same situation? 15.2. That's equivalent to a 30 Strength score, by the by.

They're roughly equivalent - 23.5 damage per attack - at a Strength score of 46.

Reduce the chance to hit (to, say 50%), and the longsword wielder retains his lead. Drop it below the critical threshhold of the rapier (15%), and the longsword's lead increases.

Now, take the same situation, and give the Rapier wielder stacking Keen and Improved Critical. We'll give the longsword wielder Flaming.

The rapier-wielder is now down a feat compared to his longsword-wielding buddy.

At a damage bonus of +10 (again, equivalent to a 30 Strength), and when anything other than a 1 hits, the rapier wielder is ahead of the longsword wielder - by 0.12 damage per attack. Should the longsword wielder decide to spend that feat in, say, Weapon Specialization (for a +2 to damage), he's back out in the lead again - by 2 points per attack.

EDIT:

For kicks and giggles, let's throw in a battleaxe in that last scenario. It is exactly equal to the longsword - as expected. In other words, a suped-up rapier wielder *barely* breaks even at +10 to damage vs. the "standard" melee weapons, but only so long as those weapons have nothing fancy going for them. A single extra damage enhancement - flaming, shocking, an additional +1 enhancement, - or a single extra feat - like Weapon Spec. - and they handily beat the optimized rapier.