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Critical Role Echo Knight is Wildemount's Most Popular Subclass

Russ Morrissey

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I still don't understand why D&D Beyond exists. I use it only when required by a DM. And I greatly dislike it. It is a way to double the work (making a character on Roll20 and on here) and triple the cost (buying the hard copy, buying on Roll20, and on D&D Beyond).
It feels like you're making an effort to misunderstand.

Roll20's character sheet is dreadful. If you're comparing that and the Beyond character sheet and saying Roll20 is better, then you're basically the guy who claims his Skoda is better than a new BMW, and okay, well, fine but that's ridiculous. I don't know why you "dislike it". Doesn't make any sense and you haven't explained beyond a weirdly outdated claim that the character sheet didn't work right.

You don't need to double-effort or double-pay. Literally the only things you put into the Roll20 sheet are your AC and initiative mod (and Beyond20 is hoping to not even have to do that eventually). There's absolutely no requirement to buy all the books and so on, on Roll20.

And for books and material in general, Beyond does a vastly better job than Roll20. The book mobile app is particularly good - actually better than PDFs by a large margin - and it works even if you have no connection to the internet (it just can't update anything).

We don't even use the paid version of Roll20, and it all works fine.

As for "triple the cost", well, that's 100% on you. If you insist on buying the books in all three formats, when all you need to do is buy them on Beyond, I don't know what to tell you. Pretty sure an awful lot of 5E play on Roll20 will move on to Beyond's VTT once that's up and running, too.
 

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I would concur with the conclusion that Magnify Gravity, is a top tier 1st level spell, a functional replacement for the Shatter spell, (one does not need both spells), and a bit overpowered.

Not broken.
Sure, still a problem indicative of poor playtesting. You bring up the "restricted" point again. Again I point out that that is literally not an argument in favour of your position, unless the spell is restricted to an otherwise-weak subclass. And that is not the case - it is in fact associated with a very strong subclass, certainly one of the best Wizard subclasses.

Not really clear why you're obsessed with things being "not broken" though? Broken isn't just a failure of playtesting/balance. Broken is a result of a total breakdown of playtesting/balance. It's like "Well yer honor, yes ma cousin hit the sheriff in the face with a beer bottle, but at least he didn't shoot him!". That's not exactly a great point to be making.

It's comfortably within the range of 2nd level spell. Does less damage than you expect for a 2nd-level spell, but the movement impact is more than you'd expect, and it has a bonus effect. It's obviously vastly superior to the 2nd-level Snilloc's Snowball Swarm.

This admittedly because Snilloc's is rubbish, Snilloc's does 1.5 more damage than 1st-level MG, to a MUCH smaller area (less than a third of MG, making it harder to position, and with a much lower max and likely targets), with a much worse damage type (Cold is nearly as bad as Fire, though Poison is the worst damage type in 5E), and NO secondary effects instead of two, one of which is amazing. So it is OBJECTIVELY superior to Snillocs. And that's a 2nd level spell vs a 1st. It's not a small margin either.

And Shatter and Snillocs are the only similar 2nd-level spells to MG. Upcast MG is certainly the equal of Shatter, and even 1st-level MG is pretty close, just a bit less damage (but using a first-level spell slot!!!). Snilloc's is really bad compared to Shatter, which happens within spell levels, but it's also really bad compared to MG. Which is staggering.

Fix-wise I'd suggest lowering the damage to the expected 2d6, and the radius to 5'. That would make it actually like a 1st-level AE spell.

(re: Dragon's Breath, it's a far better spell on paper than it is in practice, in experience - it also serves a different role - generally you want to cast it on a melee character who does mediocre damage, like a Cleric, because that way even if they can only safely hit one target, particularly after you've used it once and the enemy scatter/manuever, which is very common, it's still helpful. Players often make bad mistakes with it in my experience, in a way they don't with stuff like Shatter, like Sorcerers casting it on themselves then trying to go kill stuff, and getting the snot beaten out of them, or casting it on a character who does way more DPR than they're likely to get out of using their action that way, then being irked the other character isn't using it.)
 

jgsugden

Hero
The fact that, in response to my talking about the loophole, you mention something which can get multiple concentration spells up at once...tells me you don't even understand what the loophole is. THAT isn't the loophole. You can ALSO do that with this ability but that's not the loophole my man.
Facepalm You've stated exactly what you considered the loophole is. We know your opinion. The fact that other people were not worried about it enough to raise it first is a clue that you're not necessarily seeing this the same as others.
And yes, I definitely don't think Mercer spotted it as I don't think they used the ability that way. They used it like a ring of spell storing - I think they thought the wording was so similar it was obvious that's how it worked. Nobody was summoning steeds with a single action or conjuring minor elementals with a single action or using a third level spell slot to create an impenetrable barrier you can cast spells out of but foes cannot attack into.
READ TINY HUT. YOU CAN'T CAST SPELLS OUT OF IT. "Creatures and objects within the dome when you cast this spell can move through it freely. All other creatures and objects are barred from passing through it. Spells and other magical effects can't extend through the dome or be cast through it." Crimany. No wonder you think the rules are broken. You break them.

You do realize there are a lot of ways to make a Tiny Hut in a dungeon right now? My wizard PCs often made a tiny hut WITHOUT A SPELL SLOT (OMG - HOW BROKEN) and then lets the other PCs lure enemies back to it so that we can MISSILE ATTACK them (you know, something actually allowed by the spell) from the safety of it.
And no, the wording does not make this aspect of it obvious. People were talking about multiple concentration spells, but not the avoiding long casting times. It is not in fact obvious from the text. Most reviews of the class didn't mention that aspect. It's only when you consider something like, "What would happen if I put a Hallucinatory Terrain spell in this thing" that you realize you can suddenly turn that otherwise pretty mediocre spell into a killer one-action battlefield control spell with this ability, once every short rest.
I'm sorry you did not spot it. I, and a lot of other people that have played wizards for a while, especially ones that have used spells with longer casting times, did not have the same trouble spotting it as you. I also spotted the risks of having spells lost when you put them in a bauble that is carried. As a DM, I had a fun little idea about framing a PC for a crime by tricking them into putting one of their signature spells into this thing and then having a BBEG steal it and use it to attack people. I hope someone someday plays one of these wizards so that I can use that as a fun little story twist.

I'm done with this and. Let's summarize: You think it is broken, that nobody could see the casting time "loophole" but you, that there was no playtesting, that the people building the book are all idiots, and that everyone will believe the Chronomancer is - without it even being close - the most powerful wizard subclass in the game. You can bicker on wording, but those are all things you've claimed here.

I disagree on all points and am more than willing to wait a year to let the world confirm by beliefs.
 

Mistwell

Legend
READ TINY HUT. YOU CAN'T CAST SPELLS OUT OF IT. "Creatures and objects within the dome when you cast this spell can move through it freely. All other creatures and objects are barred from passing through it. Spells and other magical effects can't extend through the dome or be cast through it." Crimany. No wonder you think the rules are broken. You break them.
You're being needlessly aggressive and going over the top and for some reason engaging in personal attacks. Calm the F down my man. If you want to know why I think something, ask for a clarification and don't freak out like someone is assaulting your grandmother.

"Creatures and objects within the dome when you cast this spell can move through it freely." Which means you just need to stick your hand through the dome to release a spell and then pull your hand back, and your foes cannot do the same in return. So you can, in fact, pretty easily cast spells at foes outside the dome from within the dome.

You do realize there are a lot of ways to make a Tiny Hut in a dungeon right now? My wizard PCs often made a tiny hut WITHOUT A SPELL SLOT (OMG - HOW BROKEN)
Yes of course, we've played with the spell for 5 years. It's used that way during a rest. NOT during a combat with a single action. It fundamentally changes the spells uses if you can create it with a single action.

I'm done with this and. Let's summarize: You think it is broken, that nobody could see the casting time "loophole" but you, that there was no playtesting, that the people building the book are all idiots
Nope. I never called anyone an idiot, and others saw the loophole but me (I named some above) but I don't think Mercer saw it because he never used it that way and thought it was obvious it's not intended to be used that way. The language he uses for his home game works fine for his home game but it needed WOTC to tweak it for wider use and I think this one slipped through the cracks at WOTC in playtesting - I don't think that aspect was the intent. It's OK, it happens, and nobody is an idiot for it. Sort of like Healing Spirit apparently.

But claiming I said those things is another example of you losing your S over this conversation. I know the quarantine is rough, but I am not your punching bag and this conversation about a character class ability in D&D is not an opportunity for you to take your rage out over whatever is going on in your life to some stranger on the Internet. Find your zen.
 

jgsugden

Hero
Again, revisionist history and questionable calls on rules interpretations ignored, we'll wait a year and see. For now, goodbye.
 




It feels like you're making an effort to misunderstand.

Roll20's character sheet is dreadful. If you're comparing that and the Beyond character sheet and saying Roll20 is better, then you're basically the guy who claims his Skoda is better than a new BMW, and okay, well, fine but that's ridiculous. I don't know why you "dislike it". Doesn't make any sense and you haven't explained beyond a weirdly outdated claim that the character sheet didn't work right.

You don't need to double-effort or double-pay. Literally the only things you put into the Roll20 sheet are your AC and initiative mod (and Beyond20 is hoping to not even have to do that eventually). There's absolutely no requirement to buy all the books and so on, on Roll20.

And for books and material in general, Beyond does a vastly better job than Roll20. The book mobile app is particularly good - actually better than PDFs by a large margin - and it works even if you have no connection to the internet (it just can't update anything).

We don't even use the paid version of Roll20, and it all works fine.

As for "triple the cost", well, that's 100% on you. If you insist on buying the books in all three formats, when all you need to do is buy them on Beyond, I don't know what to tell you. Pretty sure an awful lot of 5E play on Roll20 will move on to Beyond's VTT once that's up and running, too.
Nah, I'm doing it pretty effortlessly. :)
So my issues with the character sheet on the website isn't "weirdly outdated." It literally happened during the last game. I didn't Google issues from two years ago just to make up a problem I had with it.
I was just going on to look at it before writing this post and discovered I can't access the character sheet on the App. What's that? There's a flipping free Pathfinder 2e character builder app that's a few months old that has that feature, and you're telling me the "premiere" D&D online resource can't do it?
 

Horwath

Adventurer
BUT a battlemaster's maneuvers are a limited resource. A readied action might take out a dupe for one round - but the echo knight will immediately re-summon them next round with a bonus action.

Even if the enemies understand that the dupe isn't "real", in many cases that won't matter because the dupe is still a threat - and if the enemy can't target the real character, the dupe is effectively an unkillable threat that will reappear every round. Better keep readying that action every single round. And that's assuming the enemies hit the dupe - it has a decent AC of 16, which means lower level enemies will sometimes waste a round or two just swinging at it.

And yes, an AOE effect will shut the dupe down - but how often are you really going to drop damage auras on a level 3 party?

Again, at level 5 I think this ability is fine. At level 3 it's OP compared to what most other characters are doing.
still didn't get a hold of the book, but almost all ranged characters in 5e can only be countered by ready action, as they can move out of cover to shoot/cast spell then move back into cover.

even mooks with 6 int will get the grip on the tactics after 1st round.

Stop using int 1 animals.
 


"Creatures and objects within the dome when you cast this spell can move through it freely." Which means you just need to stick your hand through the dome to release a spell and then pull your hand back,
I would dispute that interpretation. RAW there is no rule that says you can cast a spell with only a small part of your body. I would rule that if spells cannot pass through something, then the caster must be entirely on the side they wished to target when casting the spell, even if they hopped back inside immediately after releasing the spell. Thus they could be targeted by a held action.
 

Iry

Adventurer
The Echo Knight CAN be overpowered, the same way a sneaking rogue can snipe people and run away over and over. Which is to say, your party is probably not going to enjoy standing around while you do your thing for an hour of RL time. You can use the tactic now and then, but part of the balance is not being a disruptive player.
 

I was just going on to look at it before writing this post and discovered I can't access the character sheet on the App. What's that? There's a flipping free Pathfinder 2e character builder app that's a few months old that has that feature, and you're telling me the "premiere" D&D online resource can't do it?
Mate no hate on you right but this is what I mean re: making an effort to not understand! :)

The app isn't that kind of app. The app is just the books. That's it. You can search them really well so it may seem like more, but that's all it is.

For the character sheet, just go to the Beyond website on the browser of your phone (hopefully Chrome, but Safari seems to be fine too - I can't speak for weird Samsung browsers or anything, though it seems okay on my work S8's Samsung browser), open your character sheet on Beyond (it's really easy), and then you've got a character sheet on Beyond open and it works and so on.

That's it... You don't need a character sheet app.
 

jgsugden

Hero
I would dispute that interpretation. RAW there is no rule that says you can cast a spell with only a small part of your body. I would rule that if spells cannot pass through something, then the caster must be entirely on the side they wished to target when casting the spell, even if they hopped back inside immediately after releasing the spell. Thus they could be targeted by a held action.
Don't bother. His entire argument is contingent on this ... odd ... interpretation. He isn't going to back down and won't see the phrase "Spells and other magical effects can't extend through the dome or be cast through it" as intended to stop the spellcaster from casting spells while inside of it that impact others outside of it.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
And yes, an AOE effect will shut the dupe down - but how often are you really going to drop damage auras on a level 3 party?
Very often. Most fights.

Also, there isn’t a significant difference between balance at 3 and 5, and the only thing that could make the echo “overpowered” at level 3 is The very specific tactic you described, which isn’t that hard to counter. And if it goes uncountered, cool! The character gets to shine.
 

Burnside

Space Jam Confirmed
Am now nearing completion of Lost Mine of Phandelver with an Echo Knight in the party and am more convinced than ever that the subclass's level 3 abilities are way too powerful for Tier One play.

Out of combat, inexhaustible line-of-site 15' teleportation trivializes many tier 1 exploration encounters. Also, the dupe is explicitly not a creature, so is not subject to many spell effects and traps where the wording specifically targets creatures. But it can still make attacks, which in certain situations makes it an invulnerable assailant/combatant against certain environmental hazards and enemies. It is also immune to all conditions, so it can't be grappled, restrained, stunned, poisoned, etc.
 

Burnside

Space Jam Confirmed
* It is not a creature and can't make ability checks - no stealth, no acrobatics, no athletics, no perception, no initiative rolls. Only creatures make ability checks. If grappled, it stays grappled. It can't hide. It can't see or hear anything.

* If it is cut off from you, you have to spend a round dismissing it as a bonus before you can resummons it on the following round.
These are inaccurate. The ability description specifically states it's immune to all conditions, which would include grappled. It's not that it can't break a grapple; it's that it can't be grappled at all. What it DOES mean is that the real echo knight can escape any grapple automatically using a bonus action by switching with the dupe.

You can effectively dismiss and re-summon the echo in a single bonus action. The description of the ability states that "This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed, until you dismiss it as a bonus action, until you manifest another echo, or until you’re incapacitated."

So you can dismiss an echo by summoning another echo in another location - as one bonus action.
 
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jgsugden

Hero
These are inaccurate. The ability description specifically states it's immune to all conditions, which would include grappled. It's not that it can't break a grapple; it's that it can't be grappled at all.

You can effectively dismiss and re-summon the echo in a single bonus action. The description of the ability states that "This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed, until you dismiss it as a bonus action, until you manifest another echo, or until you’re incapacitated."

So you can dismiss an echo by summoning another echo in another location - as one bonus action.
There are flaws in what I said, yes. I should have said:

* It is not a creature and can't make ability checks - no stealth, no acrobatics, no athletics, no perception, no initiative rolls. Only creatures make ability checks. It can't hide. It can't see or hear anything. [These are all correct].

* If it is cut off from you, you can resummon it as a bonus action. [Which wasn't really a point worth making - I should have said nothing there.]
...Out of combat, inexhaustible line-of-site 15' teleportation trivializes many tier 1 exploration encounters.
Which hazards did you face in LMoP that you bypassed with this Shadow that were not passable with a jump or other mundane travel?
Also, the dupe is explicitly not a creature, so is not subject to many spell effects and traps where the wording specifically targets creatures. But it can still make attacks, which in certain situations makes it an invulnerable assailant/combatant against certain environmental hazards and enemies.
Where was it an invulnerable assailant/combatant in LMoP for you?

Also, as it can't see, if you can see the target for it to attack the target without guessing location/disadvantage, you're generally within sight. You might be hidden, but that is not a perfect defense. And if you go down...

I tried it out as well. It was a solid, playable, evocative subclass - but not broken/way too powerful. The moon druid outclassed the Echo Night by a large degree.
 
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Burnside

Space Jam Confirmed
One recent example is the poison moss/spores in Wave Echo Cave that trigger when a "creature" moves within 5 feet of them. The dupe, not a creature, could pass them harmlessly, and the echo knight could then switch with the dupe to avoid them. This DID require the foreknowledge that the moss was poisonous, which the ranger had learned by casting Detect Poison and Disease. The echo knight used the dupe to "attack" the moss, which I ruled would trigger the spores (which I viewed as the only sane ruling to make), which the dupe was then immune to. The party then simply waited until the gas dispersed.

The dupe can move in any direction, including straight up into the air. There are things in LMoP that are 10'-15' feet high and need to be climbed up or down; this ability trivializes those.

Spellcasting enemies including Glasstaff, Mormesk the wraith, and Black Spider are all kitted out with spells and abilities that require a "creature" as a target, so they effectively had almost nothing they could use against the dupe. Glasstaff was particularly embarrassing in this regard.

I did have some fun with an evil rival party of adventurers that also included the brother of the echo knight who has the same abilities as the sister. The adventurers learned for themselves what a pain in the ass it can be to face somebody with those abilities. Also including an amusing dueling dupes exchange.
 

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