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Critical Role Echo Knight is Wildemount's Most Popular Subclass

Russ Morrissey

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Mistwell

Legend
Reminds me of discussions of the Hexblade Warlock, tbh. It “gets more” than other subclasses, but...it doesn’t make a more powerful character than what is available in the phb. It just reads as powerful because it has more bullet points than other warlocks.
It's the lack of multiple attribute dependency that the Hexblade offers.
 

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Reminds me of discussions of the Hexblade Warlock, tbh. It “gets more” than other subclasses, but...it doesn’t make a more powerful character than what is available in the phb. It just reads as powerful because it has more bullet points than other warlocks.
Yeah, you can't just count the bullet points. That can be deceptive when there's ribbon abilities on offer or the subclass is towards the more transformative end and trying to do something other than the class's default role. You also have to be careful about what you're using as your comparative baseline. Sure, a new subclass might be stronger or more versatile than this other pre-existing one ...but if that other subclass is widely derided as too weak or narrow and not very fun to play than that's a good thing.
 
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jgsugden

Legend
Whether or not it's game breaking depends entirely on the game, which is why it is impossible to actually whiteroom. How big an obstacle a locked gate is intended to be depends entirely on the adventure design - it may well be designed to be too difficult to pick and too heavy to lift.
This argument always falls flat.

If your DM is putting an unpickable lock on an unbreakable/liftable gate in place, they'll just keep on piling on the protections until the PCs are stopped so that the DM can tell the players the story the DM wants to tell, rather than giving the players a realm for their characters to explore. If the DM is trying to stop you, the DM can. Period.

In a game world where the design is attempting to be organic - where the PCs come across things rather than having worlds hand crafted to them - such as in adventure paths, you're going to run into these scenarios exceptionally rarely. There are really none in LMoP that I can find. None in the version of Dragon Heist I played in, either.
Misty Step costs a 2nd level spell slot. Using it to overcome obstacles comes at a cost - a very significant one at 3rd level. The issue isn't that the echo knight can bypass obstacles - it's that they can do it for zero cost.
You missed my point. If there is only going to be instance between long rests where there is an obstacle that could only be bypassed by the Echo Knight, then it that style of use of the ability was once per long rest or unlimited. You're saying that the spell slot has a huge cost. I'm saying that adding that same cost to this use of the ability would have no impact.

And if you do have an area where the abiity is extra useful over and over - cool. We build those into the game. Plenty of undead focused dungeons allow clerics to shine, for example. Tieflings eat up a fire based dungeon with their fire resistance. Lots and lots of this type of thing. They make the PC a star for a bit, and that is always fun.

If you have one of these PCs in your game and think they are overpowered, ask yourself how the party might have solved the problem the Echo Knight solved using other resources and ask if it really was such a big deal. They often do things in a splashy way... but overpowered? No.
 


Mirtek

Adventurer
Yes, I think I would be much stricter in what I allowed the echo to do, irrespective of RAW. If the echo is supposed to be an alternative universe version of you, it seems unlikely that there exists a universe in which you are hovering 15' in the air.
Maybe that echo is from an universe that sits 15' higher than the current one ;)
 

The echo knight is very cool, but the rules are very poorly written for what the RAI is meant to be, according to Jeremy Crawford's clarifications. The book never said it was an object, never clarified that they could hover, never said if they were flammable for the purposes of ignoring fireball, and didn't specify if it could hold or manipulate objects or creatures.
 

Mort

Hero
Supporter
Sure, but it’s hardly alone in that, and that doesn’t make it more powerful than what’s available before it.
There's another class/feat/ability that allows a Paladin to focus solely on CHA while leaving STR at 13? Meaning the paladin doesn't have to choose between to hit and damage vs. Better saves and spell DCs - but instead gets the best of both worlds?
 


Parmandur

Legend
There's another class/feat/ability that allows a Paladin to focus solely on CHA while leaving STR at 13? Meaning the paladin doesn't have to choose between to hit and damage vs. Better saves and spell DCs - but instead gets the best of both worlds?
Certainly the world has seen nothing since 2017 except for Warlock Paladin Multiclassing combos...
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
A spellcasting stat which is also your melee or ranged stat, and also one of the most common out of combat stats?
How is it more powerful than a fiend blaster-lock from the phb? It can make competent Melee attacks? I mean, only at low levels, if it doesn’t invest in weapon oriented invocations.

and the Tomelock could do it by level 3 in the phb, while also gaining the best ritual casting in the game with 1 invocation, and two more cantrips for greater versatility out of combat.

It’s odd to me that you can see this with the echo knight, and not the Hexblade warlock.
 

jgsugden

Legend
The echo knight is very cool, but the rules are very poorly written for what the RAI is meant to be, according to Jeremy Crawford's clarifications. The book never said it was an object, never clarified that they could hover, never said if they were flammable for the purposes of ignoring fireball, and didn't specify if it could hold or manipulate objects or creatures.
You wanted them to specify every little detail?

The book said it was an image. It is never said the image was a creature

Every other image in the game can be made to hover. Why not this one?

Why would it ignore fireballs? It has hps and AC, so it can clearly be damaged.

They could have written 30 pages covering every scenario imaginable, but everything that sage advice has written is a direct interpretation of what is in the book. It follows the rules you'd expect for an image with the stated exceptions listed in the book.
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
There's another class/feat/ability that allows a Paladin to focus solely on CHA while leaving STR at 13? Meaning the paladin doesn't have to choose between to hit and damage vs. Better saves and spell DCs - but instead gets the best of both worlds?
The Hexblade saves That (overrated) combo 2 levels of warlock. That’s literally it.

And the combo isn’t as powerful as folks make it out to be, nor does a MC combo change the power level of a subclass.
 

Undrave

Hero
The Echo Knight probably FEELS too strong because it's a Fighter that doesn't just do fightery stuff and can do fun and clever stuff outside of combat.

So what if they can obviate a chasm by teleporting over once in a blue moon? The PC would have found a way across, it would have taken maybe five more minute of game time, tops. Maybe the Wizard uses Mage Hand to drop a rope loop around a stalactite on the other side and the halfling rogue gets across and secure it. It's more 'cinematic' but it doesn't automatically make it 'less OP' or better (I mean, the rest of the party still need to make it across). Sometimes PCs make certain obstacles too easy, but sometimes they're not ready for some other obstacles. Don't fret, move on.
 

Mort

Hero
Supporter
Certainly the world has seen nothing since 2017 except for Warlock Paladin Multiclassing combos...
The comment I was responding to was the one stating that hexblade is hardly unique in reducing multi attribute dependency for another class.

I notice you didn't actually address the question?
 

Mort

Hero
Supporter
The Hexblade saves That (overrated) combo 2 levels of warlock. That’s literally it.

And the combo isn’t as powerful as folks make it out to be, nor does a MC combo change the power level of a subclass.state
When you're dealing with Paladin, saving 2 levels is a lot.

I made no judgments on the power level of the combo. I did however, ask if there is any other way, as you stated, to efficiently reduce the Paladins MAD?
 

Zardnaar

Legend
How is it more powerful than a fiend blaster-lock from the phb? It can make competent Melee attacks? I mean, only at low levels, if it doesn’t invest in weapon oriented invocations.

and the Tomelock could do it by level 3 in the phb, while also gaining the best ritual casting in the game with 1 invocation, and two more cantrips for greater versatility out of combat.

It’s odd to me that you can see this with the echo knight, and not the Hexblade warlock.
Different build the hexblade dumps all over the phb blade lock which is a fairer comparison.

Fiendpact tomelock played as an Archer with tricks is best way to play a phb warlock. You can get around the blade lock MAD with rolled stats or MCing into fighter with default array.

Xanathars could be renamed to Xanathars Guide to Power Creep.
 

You wanted them to specify every little detail?

The book said it was an image. It is never said the image was a creature

Every other image in the game can be made to hover. Why not this one?

Why would it ignore fireballs? It has hps and AC, so it can clearly be damaged.

They could have written 30 pages covering every scenario imaginable, but everything that sage advice has written is a direct interpretation of what is in the book. It follows the rules you'd expect for an image with the stated exceptions listed in the book.
Every detail relevant to play. It didn't include this.

Yes, but it never said it was an object. There are 2 main categories of things in D&D: Creatures and Objects. There are also magical effects, like illusions. The subclass never explained what it was. JC said that it was an object, but this should've been specified in the book, because it is very important to play.

It was just unclear to whether or not they had weight. If they had weight, they probably couldn't hover. It also wasn't clear as to whether or not it was a creature, object, or purely magical effect. Creatures fall, objects generally fall, and magical effects don't. Sure, RAW, it says "30 feet in any direction" but this text is still vague.

It would ignore fireballs because it only effects creatures and flammable objects. They had to clarify that it wasn't a creature, and they still haven't said whether or not it was flammable. It has HP and AC, but not every spell can effect everything with AC and HP. Toll of the Dead only works on creatures, so you couldn't do it on a rock. Same thing with Fireball.

I don't want 30 pages explaining what would happen in every scenario, we just need clear RAW explanations of what an Echo is and what it can do. We didn't receive this.
 



Parmandur

Legend
Except for the Arcane Archer :p and I think Samurai is pretty underwhelming too.



Yeah... It's not like you can dump all your stats to 8 and then have one stat at like 24 or something...The range between MAD and SAD is pretty small in 5e.
And the assumed rule is rolling for stats, anyways. I've never seen anyone use point buy or the array when making a character.
 

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