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Critical Role Echo Knight is Wildemount's Most Popular Subclass

Russ Morrissey

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jgsugden

Hero
A few reminders on the Echo Knight:

* It can't see. You see for it. If you do not have line of sight to the target, the target is heavily obscured for attacks from the Echo Knight and you must guess where the target is. If you have partially blocked vision, then it is lightly obscured, only, which does not hamper the attacks (but does impact perception checks from you).

* You need to be within 30 feet of it at the end of your turn or it is destroyed. It can move beyond that range, but must end your turn back within that range or it will be destroyed.

* You can move the image up to 30 feet on your turn. There is no limitation that you can only do this once per turn, but it is implied. If that requirement is there, then you can do the movement at any point, as a 'free action', but only once. There is no rule allowing the image (which is not a creature) to move before and after the attack.

* It is not a creature and can't make ability checks - no stealth, no acrobatics, no athletics, no perception, no initiative rolls. Only creatures make ability checks. If grappled, it stays grappled. It can't hide. It can't see or hear anything.

* Creating the echo, dismissing it or swapping places with it requires a bonus action, as does second wind and many racial abilities. Your echo needs to survive for a round to swap with it. If it is cut off from you, you have to spend a round dismissing it as a bonus before you can resummons it on the following round.

* It does not provoke an OA. It is not a creature and only (hostile) creatures provoke OAs.

* The additional attacks granted at 3rd level recharge on a Long Rest. They must be melee attacks - not ranged attacks.

* It is not a creature, so there are many things that can't target it. Specifically, many spells can only target creatures.

* It can't open doors, pick up anything, bandage an ally, or do anything that is not an attack, movement, swapping, or one of the other specified things an echo can do.
 

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jgsugden

Hero
To those saying everything in this book was playtested adequately, I challenge you to review the Chronurgist's 10th level ability, consider what you could do with it in terms of allowing you to have two concentration spells up at once AND get around longer casting times for spells not intended for combat to make them 1 action casting, and tell me again that ability had adequate playtesting.
The ability was adequately playtested.
Because I am just not seeing it. That ability...I mean Ruin Explorer may not be willing to use the word "broken" but I am for that ability. It's broken guys. It's breaking basic assumptions of the game. I don't think it's written as they intended it to function.
It is not breaking the basic assumption of the game, because it is allowing a second creature to cast one of your spells, not allowing you to cast two spells at once. We've had that ability since the beginning of 5E. See the Ring of Spell Storing. If you used the bead, it would still require you to concentrate on that spell.
 


There is no limitation that you can only do this once per turn, but it is implied.
Reading it now and I'm seeing no such implication, in fact quite the contrary. What exactly do you think implies it?

The text explicitly avoids using the term "free action", instead saying "no action required", so it definitely isn't a free action RAW and doesn't look like it's RAI. Thus you can move it multiple times/turn.

It doesn't provoke OAs (it'd be less powerful if it did), but it can make them, to be clear.
 

Mistwell

Legend
I know you're the guide guy, but literally the first guide I found to Dunamancy spells had multiple ones rated in the top two categories, including four blue ones (though not Magnify Gravity, hilariously - maybe they just thing 1st level AE damage spells suck as a general thing).


Obviously opinions can vary, but a lot of people seem to think that Dark Star and a couple of others are extremely good spells as well.

I focused on Magnify Gravity because it's one spell. I don't really want to be putting the details of every Dunamancy spell on the internet, it doesn't seem quite right.
I have never heard of that guide guy, but I think if you watch Treantmonk's video on those spells you will find that guide you highlighted is missing significant drawbacks to the spells he's calling Blue. There are only three, so let's go through them.

Gift of Alacrity is a good spell, but only at mid to higher levels. It's not worth that spell slot for lower levels. So, not worth a Blue rating. It's good though. I'd take this spell eventually, just not early on.

Temporal Shunt is another good spell. But with a Wisdom saving throw, it's useless against (for example) Legendary creatures. And the Upcasting of the spell is...meaningless. It doesn't function because they didn't start an attack roll or spell casting. It's still pretty good, but it's not better than a normal dispel magic spell at the lower level (maybe an upcast dispel magic).

Dark Star: This is where the guide you mentioned goes off the rails. That guide calls 8d10 for an 8th level spell "good damage". That is BAD damage. REALLY bad damage for an 8th level spell. And a Con save for half, which is the worst save to be targeting. It would be better damage if it hit a second time, but you're minimum 15th level by the time you're casting this spell which means you're fighting CR 15 creatures (and up). Highly unlikely a CR 15 creature cannot get out of the area of effect on their turn. This should be a 6th level spell. At 8th level, I wouldn't take this spell.

So yeah...I'd say there is one spell that's overpowered and it's the one you highlighted, Magnify Gravity. And it's not VERY overpowered, it's just probably a 2nd level spell listed as a 1st level spell. Don't get me wrong - I would take that spell. But, if it were a 2nd level spell, I think it would be essentially the same as a Shatter spell, which is what I'd call a decent 2nd level spell.
 

Mistwell

Legend
The ability was adequately playtested.
It is not breaking the basic assumption of the game, because it is allowing a second creature to cast one of your spells, not allowing you to cast two spells at once. We've had that ability since the beginning of 5E. See the Ring of Spell Storing. If you used the bead, it would still require you to concentrate on that spell.
Yes imagine that it's one of the best magic items in the game for a wizard which you AUTOMATICALLY GET plus it avoids longer casting times! And your familiar can use the bead, so it does allow "you" to have two concentration spells up at once since "you" control the familiar.

But it's that last part about avoiding long casting times which makes it FAR FAR FAR better than a ring of spell storing! A ring of spell storing treats it "as if you had cast it" which means all casting times for the spell carry through to the ring. However this ability is "A creature holding the bead can use its action to release the spell within". That means a spell which has a casting time of 1 hour or even 8 hours can be released with a single action in combat.

We have not had that ability ever in this game EXCEPT FOR USING THE WISH SPELL. That is literally the only other way I am aware of to get rid of a long casting time.

It breaks many spells which were never intended to be used in combat.

For example, you can now cast a Tiny Hut in combat with a single action, erecting an impenetrable barrier which the PCs can fire out of but foes cannot fire into, for a low-level spell slot! And you can do this every short rest, so probably three times a day.

I don't think WOTC thought that language through. I think they meant the spell casting time to carry through just like it does for a ring of spell storing. But...it doesn't.
 

jgsugden

Hero
Yes imagine that it's one of the best magic items in the game for a wizard which you AUTOMATICALLY GET plus it avoids longer casting times! And your familiar can use the bead, so it does allow "you" to have two concentration spells up at once since "you" control the familiar.
Until the familiar is hit by something, dies, and drops your bead on the floor where an enemy can pick it up... And while this is a strong item, it is not the most popular rare item in D&D according to D&D Beyond stats. The item has not ruined any games I have seen, and I have seen it used a few times.
But it's that last part about avoiding long casting times which makes it FAR FAR FAR better than a ring of spell storing! A ring of spell storing treats it "as if you had cast it" which means all casting times for the spell carry through to the ring. However this ability is "A creature holding the bead can use its action to release the spell within". That means a spell which has a casting time of 1 hour or even 8 hours can be released with a single action in combat.
Yes. 10th level abilities are supposed to be useful... and one that alters casting times, effectively, is suitable for this class. Intentionally so, I believe. However, it is far from a broken thing.
We have not had that ability ever in this game EXCEPT FOR USING THE WISH SPELL. That is literally the only other way I am aware of to get rid of a long casting time.
There are others, such as Glyph of Warding. However, that is irrelevant. New abilities are intended to be, you know, new. Not repeats. Most abilities break an existing rule of the game - that is why they are a benefit to the class. Because it allows them to do something nobody else can.
It breaks many spells which were never intended to be used in combat.
Beyond TH, what else are you concerned about? Not what else can be shrunk, but what else is a huge worry for you?
For example, you can now cast a Tiny Hut in combat with a single action, erecting an impenetrable barrier which the PCs can fire out of but foes cannot fire into, for a low-level spell slot! And you can do this every short rest, so probably three times a day.]
Most campaigns do not have two short rests per day, although that was the intent of 5E. This is a solid use - if you have a party of 5 archers. But you can't cast spells through it. The TH "defensive position" gets a lot of discussion, but not a lot of actual play in my experience, and when used, it is not as overwhelming as people expect it to be.
I don't think WOTC thought that language through. I think they meant the spell casting time to carry through just like it does for a ring of spell storing. But...it doesn't.
Why do you assume a time master was not intended to manipulate casting times? I kind of think that was one of the main intents of giving this to a time wizard - to allow them to manipulate time in multiple ways.

Divination wizards can FORCE a FAILED SAVE.
Enchanters have something akin to UNLIMITED HOLD MONSTER.
Illusionists can CREATE REALITY at 14th level using 1st level spells.

This is a well thought out, useful and interesting ability that helps make the subclass interesting.

You're Mystic Theurging all over it.
 

Quote me where I said they were broken.
Ruin, find a quote of me, where I said, you said “the spells were broken”.

Can’t find it can you. The reason why, Ruin Explorer is because I never said it.

This is you, using your, imminently amusing, technique of bombast, bluster, and distraction😄

Your initial claim in this thread was the Wildemont spells are overpowered, but not broken.

I agree.

Later in this thread you made a plaintive cry of “Look at the spells, the spells are strong”, which in the context of this thread, (and the admitted fact, I am not reading every word you write), seemed like an escalation, from your prior position of:

“Wildemont spells are overpowered but not broken”.

My response was to say that you, Ruin Explorer, had not demonstrated that the spells are broken.

Which you haven’t, since it is not your position.

So in the end, and after countless expenditure of words, and playful banter we arrive at where history often has demonstrated that you and I land: We largely agree with each other, in substance. 😱

So why the Frick, are spells that are overpowered, but not broken, being discussed?

As to Anakin Skywalker, this powerful Jedi, (as Yoda referred to him in ESB), had his legs chopped off by a less powerful Jedi, (Obi has less Midi-chlorians), and then had his balls and butt, (as well as the rest of him), burnt to a crisp from lava engendered fire. 🤣

How is that not lower torso trauma?

Ruin, go chop off your legs and light your balls and butt on fire, and then tell me, from experience, “Not from Whiteboard theory crafting”, that this is not lower torso trauma!

I will wait......😇

Note: Post meant as a good natured, jocular remarks. Also sorry to Eric Noah’s grandmother for references to The Nether Regions.
 
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So yeah...I'd say there is one spell that's overpowered and it's the one you highlighted, Magnify Gravity. And it's not VERY overpowered, it's just probably a 2nd level spell listed as a 1st level spell. Don't get me wrong - I would take that spell. But, if it were a 2nd level spell, I think it would be essentially the same as a Shatter spell, which is what I'd call a decent 2nd level spell.
I mean to me that is pretty significantly overpowered. It's not game breaking, but basically being an entire spell-level higher is in effect is kind of a big deal.

The issues with some of the other spells support a contention that this was not adequately playtested, I note (for example the Temporal Shunt upcasting thing being a nonsense - I can't think of any PHB or Xanathars spells that have that issue - I mean crummy upcasting, sure, but nonsensical?).
 

Mistwell

Legend
Until the familiar is hit by something, dies, and drops your bead on the floor where an enemy can pick it up...
It's with you.

And while this is a strong item, it is not the most popular rare item in D&D according to D&D Beyond stats.
Meaningless. You don't choose magic items in 5e.

Pretty much every guide you can think of ranks it at or near the top due to it's ability to allow two concentration spells at one time.

And it cannot be used by a familiar like this one can.

And it cannot get around casting time like this one can.

The item has not ruined any games I have seen, and I have seen it used a few times. Yes. 10th level abilities are supposed to be useful... and one that alters casting times, effectively, is suitable for this class. Intentionally so, I believe. However, it is far from a broken thing. There are others, such as Glyph of Warding. However, that is irrelevant. New abilities are intended to be, you know, new. Not repeats. Most abilities break an existing rule of the game - that is why they are a benefit to the class. Because it allows them to do something nobody else can
This is silly spin. There is NOTHING in the ability description which highlights this aspect of the ability. This is not the theme of the ability. 90% of spells would see no change from that aspect of the ability and it doesn't call out that aspect in any way. It's obviously an unintended consequence of the text they used for this ability. Probably because Mercer's players never tried it that way or just assumed it worked like a ring of spell storing.

Come on jgsugden, you know this is not what they meant by that ability. Why are you pretending this particular aspect is what was the "benefit to the class" and the thing which "allows them to do something nobody else can" when it's got nothing to do with the fluff about this ability and is just a loophole they didn't catch?

You know, maybe we shouldn't debate this. I am just going to ask Crawford how this works with spells with a casting time longer than 1 action and see what he says. I am betting that was not the intent.
 

It's not game breaking, but basically being an entire spell-level higher is in effect is kind of a big deal.
So Ruin, do you also find the Guiding Bolt spell to “basically being an entire spell level higher”?

Guiding Bolt’s average damage is essentially 1 point below the expected average damage for a 2nd level Single Target damage spell, based off the chart in the DMG on page 284.

Guiding Bolt is a ranged spell attack, (which to my mind), means the spell is less swingy than a spell saving throw, especially at low levels.

Guiding Bolt also grants Advantage on the next attack roll against the target, and based off the description of “mystical, dim light glittering on the target” one could infer a conference of penalties to Hide actions for the target.

Magnify Gravity is 5 points bellow the expected average damage for a 2nd level multi-target spell, based off the DMG table on page 284. Con save for half damage.

The speed penalty for Magnify Gravity is less DM dependent, vis a vis, a ruling that a Shatter spell turns a stone floor into rubble strewn Difficult terrain, and avoids being nerfed by the Mobile feat negation of Difficult terrain.

It seems a toss up regarding Magnify Gravity’s Str check to pick up unattended objects, versus Shatter’s destruction of non magical objects.

Shatter can blow apart a locked door. Magnify Gravity can make it so one could not pick up their sword or boots from the ground for 6 seconds.

Shatter is the blast spell for bards, a very utility forward spell list.

Clerics at 1st level have the two best Single Target spells: Inflict Wounds and Guiding Bolt.

Magnify Gravity is a restricted spell at Character Level 1. It is a powerful AOE, for a class level 2, Rare Wizard subclass. The spell does less damage, than the Bard’s best 2nd level AOE.

Magnify Gravity is not better alternative for Dragon’s Breath.

So, I actually, do not feel, the Magnify Gravity spell is equal to a 2nd level spell when cast using a 1st level slot. It is equal to Shatter when upcast.

I would concur with the conclusion that Magnify Gravity, is a top tier 1st level spell, a functional replacement for the Shatter spell, (one does not need both spells), and a bit overpowered.

Not broken.
 
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jgsugden

Hero
….Come on jgsugden, you know this is not what they meant by that ability. Why are you pretending this particular aspect is what was the "benefit to the class" and the thing which "allows them to do something nobody else can" when it's got nothing to do with the fluff about this ability and is just a loophole they didn't catch?
Why would I "pretend" that a TIME wizard being able to modify casting TIME was likely intentional...? I .. don't … even … know how to respond. Perhaps the School of Evocation being able to modify evocations was unintended too....
You know, maybe we shouldn't debate this. I am just going to ask Crawford how this works with spells with a casting time longer than 1 action and see what he says. I am betting that was not the intent.
You're going to ask him what the intent was or how the ability works? Because nobody is debating how it works.

Regardless, if you feel it is uber-broken and going to ruin the game - more power to you. We'll see if there is a massive call to errata it, or if everyone is playing it, or any other evidence of it being uber-broken in a year. I'm very confident that it will not be seen as a problem in any way outside of a few folks that can't admit being wrong.
 

Undrave

Hero
So a Fighter that does more than whack people with a sharp stick is POPULAR?! Imagine that! /s

Lots of orders flying around here all of a sudden...prove this, explain that, I challenge you to etc. etc. etc. Maybe we could ease up a bit on all the vitriol? This is a game, not a corporate merger. ;-)
Clearly it should be resolved by a good old duel in a children's card game.
 

When did you last actually use the D&D Beyond sheets in an actual game? Because if it was like, years ago, I can understand you take. At the beginning, it was kind of dreadful and yes worse than the 4E character sheets in the DDI.

Now? No. The character sheets work superbly. It's improved a huge amount. Don't write it off because of past experienced.

To use Beyond for online play, you get the Beyond20 extension for Chrome, and the DM can then have it feed data in directly to Roll20. Like, I adjust my HP on beyond, it goes down on Roll20. This isn't theoretical. I did this yesterday. To roll something, you click on it. To have advantage/disadvantage you either click twice, or better you click on the Beyond20 icon, switch rolls to the appropriate one, then click on the other thing.
I used it Friday night (so like 3 nights ago).
And the stuff you describe, the HP tracking and marking advantage/disadvantage is already done on the Roll20 sheet.
So the reason you give to use D&D Beyond is that it can work with Roll20? When Roll20 already does it? And you have to have Roll20 (or another service) as a VTT.
I still don't understand why D&D Beyond exists. I use it only when required by a DM. And I greatly dislike it. It is a way to double the work (making a character on Roll20 and on here) and triple the cost (buying the hard copy, buying on Roll20, and on D&D Beyond).
 

Mistwell

Legend
Divination wizards can FORCE a FAILED SAVE.
Psst. Chronal Shift does this at second level as well. Not quite as well, but almost as likely (you force a re-roll as a reaction, AFTER you see if the first roll is a success or failure). AND they get a big bonus to init at that level. AND they can arrange for two concentration spells at once AND they can get around long casting times. Prayer of Healing as a single action spell here they come!

They are hand down better than any other wizard sub-class and it's not even close, as written. I'm telling yah, that part about ignoring casting time was not the intent. It's a big loophole. That's not the "time" part they meant for that part of that ability. The time part was shifting when the spell was cast to a future point, not the casting time!
 

jgsugden

Hero
Psst. Chronal Shift does this at second level as well. Not quite as well, but almost as likely (you force a re-roll as a reaction, AFTER you see if the first roll is a success or failure).
So, you think a guaranteed fail is nearly the same as a forced reroll?
AND they get a big bonus to init at that level. AND they can arrange for two concentration spells at once AND they can get around long casting times. Prayer of Healing as a single action spell here they come!
Wait - Prayer of Healing as a wizard? And you did notice that Diviners get a lot of abilities - like a huge number of extra spell slots, etc...
They are hand down better than any other wizard sub-class and it's not even close, as written.
Offer up a survey. See if people agree with you.
I'm telling yah, that part about ignoring casting time was not the intent. It's a big loophole.
Because it is soooooo hidden and not obvious? Isn't something you considered in the first few seconds of reading the description? You think it went through a year of development and nobody noticed it? Matt Mercer, who designed these (there are NPC chronomancers in his campaign) missed it for years?
That's not the "time" part they meant for that part of that ability. The time part was shifting when the spell was cast to a future point, not the casting time!
Yeah, you're making the assumption that it was hard to spot that '''loophole''''. It is not. It is something many of us saw in the first few seconds of reading the description - and as mentioned before, there are other methods of achieving the same thing already in the game. Glyph of warding, for example, can allow multiple concentration spells with no way to break concentration.

Again, I'm comfortable waiting a year and seeing what people think. This is a fun, but not broken or overpowered subclass. If you hold a poll in a year, it will absolutely not be ranked as the most powerful subclass.
 

Mistwell

Legend
Yeah, you're making the assumption that it was hard to spot that '''loophole''''. It is not. It is something many of us saw in the first few seconds of reading the description - and as mentioned before, there are other methods of achieving the same thing already in the game. Glyph of warding, for example, can allow multiple concentration spells with no way to break concentration.
The fact that, in response to my talking about the loophole, you mention something which can get multiple concentration spells up at once...tells me you don't even understand what the loophole is. THAT isn't the loophole. You can ALSO do that with this ability but that's not the loophole my man.

And yes, I definitely don't think Mercer spotted it as I don't think they used the ability that way. They used it like a ring of spell storing - I think they thought the wording was so similar it was obvious that's how it worked. Nobody was summoning steeds with a single action or conjuring minor elementals with a single action or using a third level spell slot to create an impenetrable barrier you can cast spells out of but foes cannot attack into.

And no, the wording does not make this aspect of it obvious. People were talking about multiple concentration spells, but not the avoiding long casting times. It is not in fact obvious from the text. Most reviews of the class didn't mention that aspect. It's only when you consider something like, "What would happen if I put a Hallucinatory Terrain spell in this thing" that you realize you can suddenly turn that otherwise pretty mediocre spell into a killer one-action battlefield control spell with this ability, once every short rest.
 

Parmandur

Legend
Yeah, by my reading the Chronourgist isn't overpowered by any means: the other Wizards at Level 10 get some sick stuff...the Wizard might be overpowered, though...
 

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