Critical Role Echo Knight is Wildemount's Most Popular Subclass

D&D Beyond shared some stats about the things people are using from Explorers Guide to Wildemount. These are stats from 28 million characters.

 

[Todd Roybark]

I'm still telling you take a gander at those spells. Magnify Gravity for example, is just outright better than any other first-level AE damage spell.

This is a quote from Wildemont:
Dunamancy spells are readily available to the wizard subclasses in this chapter and should not be simply added to the full spell lists ofother spellcasting classes. However, the Dungeon Master can consider allowing other spell casting classes opportunities throughout the campaign to learn a handful of dunamancy-themed spells as rewards.

Obviously, even with an effort to police balance between spells, some spells will be better than others. The spells you are referring to, are clearly marked as: Restricted.

If a DM ignores the signage, and does the D&D equivalent of walking on the very edge of the Cliffs of Moher, and their game suffers as a consequence, the blame falls clearly on the DM.

Magnify Gravity has a Constitution save, which in practice means it is going to get resisted frequently, especially at higher tiers of play.

Echo Knight’s Echo is better than Invoke Duplicity. It is also the bulk of the subclasses power.
Invoke Duplicity has a 120’ range vs 30’ for the Echo Knight, and is a really just a gambit for a cleric.

Crit Fishing with Spiritual Weapon and Invoke Duplicity is fun. A critical hit with Inflict Wounds is nice!

Also any DM that rules that you can spot the difference between “ A perfect Illusion” and the original, when the player is trying to cause doubt as to which is which, is lousy refereeing, to my mind.

Different beasts for Different classes, but Echo Knight’s Echo is clearly a bit of power-creep vs the restrictions on Invoke Duplicity.

 

[Parmandur]

Flip that around and say "balanced" and "well-designed", and your statement is still true. People tend to think that the way something works for their table, is the way it works for everyone else's tables (or worse, the way it should work for everyone). Balanced or unbalanced, fun or not fun, etc. It's kind of pointless to argue about feelings and judgment calls like this. (And I'd try to avoid implying that my fellow readers aren't capable of understanding something.)

The way I look at it: the author feels the Echo Knight was balanced. The playtesters felt it was balanced. The editors and publishers felt it was balanced. So it's probably balanced. It sure doesn't feel that way to me, but my feelings are pretty unreliable.

Based on how WotC does plautesting, I have moral certitude that they have solid data about in-game performance.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Also any DM that rules that you can spot the difference between “ A perfect Illusion” and the original, when the player is trying to cause doubt as to which is which, is lousy refereeing, to my mind.

Nonsense. If a creature swings at the ID, their weapon will go straight through it without the slightest resistance. If a DM rules they have to continue to treat it as the same as the PC after that, then that's ridiculous. Also, if a copy of the PC springs into existence whilst they can still see the PC, they have every reason to be suspicious of the copy.

Obviously, even with an effort to police balance between spells, some spells will be better than others. The spells you are referring to are clearly marked as Restricted.

That does not justify them being outright better than other spells. Otherwise every Wizard subclass could potentially have their own special spells which are better than other people's spells. That's literally not even argument about balance, merely access.

Both Chronurgy and Graviturgy Dunmancers ALSO get the usual abilities at 2nd, 6th, 10th etc. as any other Wizard subclass does - in fact, they have superior stuff to a lot of Wizard subclasses.

So what do they lose out on to justify having access to outright better spells than others? I'll await your answer.

And already discussed CON vs DEX, so not sure why you are saying that.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The way I look at it: the author feels the Echo Knight was balanced. The playtesters felt it was balanced. The editors and publishers felt it was balanced. So it's probably balanced. It sure doesn't feel that way to me, but my feelings are pretty unreliable.

I just don't believe that all these people actually look at the balance, sorry, and the fact that the Wizard subclasses are both "really solid/powerful Wizard subclass, which as a bonus has access to spells outright better than other ones in 5E", doesn't exactly scream "we did a great job on balance!".

Authors, even lovely smart people, tend to be terrible at balance unless it's a major concern for them (which it is for few, in my experience). 3PP stuff by experienced RPG designers is a good example - it's often got ludicrous balance issues (despite having playtesters and so on). I don't for a second believe the publishers or editors (in the conventional sense) analyze the balance. Why on earth would they?

(As an aside, we don't know how the playtesters actually felt, or whether they were all fans of CR or the like, or what. My feeling is that there's no way a spell like Magnify Gravity gets past even a mildly competent, unbiased playtester. So the fact that it did shows there's a problem, rather undeniably. And it being only accessible by two Wizard subclasses only matters if they're worse than other subclasses, like missing one or more of the L2/6/10 etc. abilities to "pay" for access to better spells. But they actually have really good 2/6/10/etc abilities.)

I see no-one is willing to suggest Magnify Gravity is actually fine, which is interesting.

 

[THEMNGMNT]

Not surprised to hear the Echo Knight is popular. When I first read it I thought: "Awesome idea. I want to play one of those!"

 

[CleverNickName]

I see no-one is willing to suggest Magnify Gravity is actually fine, which is interesting.

Well, no-one except for the author, playtesters, editors, and publishers. ;-)

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

Well, no-one except for the author, playtesters, editors, and publishers. ;-)

Didn't you read? He said no-one is willing to suggest that!

The fact that it made it into a book with all those people working on it is irrelevant!

 

[Parmandur]

I see no-one is willing to suggest Magnify Gravity is actually fine, which is interesting.

I've taken a closer look at it: per the DMG chart, a multi-target Level 1 Spell that does half-damage on a asave would do 2d6, not 2d8, so that is more powerful on first blush. My hypothesis is that they started there, but found in actual play that the Constitution saving throw was too good on targets, so they adjusted upwards. Given what is known of the statistical, bog-data approach of the WotC private playtesting process, this seems most likely.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I've taken a closer look at it: per the DMG chart, a multi-target Level 1 Spell that does half-damage on a asave would do 2d6, not 2d8, so that is more powerful on first blush. My hypothesis is that they started there, but found in actual play that the Constitution saving throw was too good on targets, so they adjusted upwards. Given what is known of the statistical, bog-data approach of the WotC private playtesting process, this seems most likely.

And what about the other two abilities, one of which is huge? Half movement is amazing for a 1st level spell. It's certainly more powerful than the 10' shove of Thunderwave (and doesn't have the 300' alert disadvantage, nor requires you to be in melee, and hits more targets).

And it has a 60' range, targets a point, and has a 10' radius. Literally no damaging 1st level spell has either of the second traits (and no AE has better range, except maybe Rain of Thorns on a good day).

In fact, take a look at Shatter, a level 2 spell:

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Shatter is arguably worse than Magnify Gravity straight-up (given the power of half movement), and on top of that, it's pretty much objectively worse than upcasting Magnify Gravity.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Ruin, have you seen a stage magician work up close? I’ve seen 3 Card Monte type effects, done in my own living room, with the trick spelled out to me, and failed to see the prestidigation.

So, even if one had struck the Perfect Illusion previously, actively playing three card monte with the Original and the Illusion, by moving through each other’s squares should still cause targeting confusion.

Detailed players, will intentionally attempt to sow this confusion. So yes, it is poor form as a DM to blatantly ignore these efforts.

Loki’s illusions from the Marvel movies do not work all the time, but the illusions do work, most of the time.

In regards to the spells, quite simply Ruin, you have not made the case these spells are broken.
Some are overpowered, in my opinion. None at a glance, strike me as broken.

Many spell casting subclasses get access to spells not normally on their default spell list.
These particular spells can only be selected starting at 2nd level. So the spells in question are a spells known tax...one will have to select the spells on level up, and access at 1st level character level is restricted.

If the spells and subclasses do not fit your view of what constitutes a balanced D&D diet, don’t use the optional material.

Gift of Alacrity and Fortune’s Favor, the two spells from the book that will see use at every tier, (in my view), have more synergistic advantages for the Diviner wizard subclass then for a Chronurgist.

A Chronurgist is great for a 5 minute work day, and with a player that is adept at planning. The subclass abilities have a level of nuance, that many will not like, or get at first glance.

The Diviner subclass has similar Saving Throw Debuffs through it’s Portent subclass feature, and incredible 6-8 encounter a day staying power through Expert Divination.

Malleable Illusion means an Illusionist can change their appearance with an action, for a whole hour with a single cast of Disguise Self. An Illusionist can use Mirage Arcane to devastating effect.

A PC could easily hold a square mile of say the harbor of Waterdeep hostage for 10 days, changing the terrain with a mere action, during that time. It is hard to dock a schooner on a snow covered mountain that was the ocean before, and might become a Death Valley like desert in the next 6 seconds.

Chronurgists are powerful, but power has it’s limits. Just ask Anakin Skywalker about his lower torso.