ECL and Character Level

[Jhulae]

I'm not quite sure what's correct.

Let's say I'm playing a 9th level (ECL 12) Avariel Paladin and I have a divine feat that lets me add my charisma bonus to my shield for 1/2 my character level in rounds.

Do I add:

6 rounds (because my effective Character Level is 12)

-or-

4 rounds (because I have 9 Hit Dice)?

I'm thinking 6, but I'm not sure and can't seem to find a reference to back that.

 

[Maleketh]

Character level = hit dice, not ECL. Your bonus would last for 4 rounds.

 

[frankthedm]

ECL almost never helps a character. It is just there to make sure the Fellowship of the Ring races are not outshined by the oddball races.

Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level
To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.

Monster characters treat skills mentioned in their monster entry as class skills.

If a monster has 1 Hit Die or less, or if it is a template creature, it must start the game with one or more class levels, like a regular character. If a monster has 2 or more Hit Dice, it can start with no class levels (though it can gain them later).

Even if the creature is of a kind that normally advances by Hit Dice rather than class levels a PC can gain class levels rather than Hit Dice.

Hit Dice
The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size like additional racial Hit Dice do.

Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases
A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.

 

[Jhulae]

On one hand, I can see what you're saying. On the other hand, it most certainly breaks down if ECL isn't used as, well, the *effective* character level.

What's the maximum cohort level a 6th level Drow cleric can get with the Leadership feat? 4th level (4 HD or 2 HD plus Drow ECL)? That's a 4th level character with an an 'effective' 8th level character. That doesn't make sense; obviously, while the leadership feat is acquired at 6 HD, the Drow Cleric can have an ECL 6 (either 6 HD or a 4th level Drow) cohort, just like the 6th level Drow cleric has gear appropriate to an 8th level character.

Why wouldn't the same thing apply to another feat's effects?

 

[irdeggman]

On one hand, I can see what you're saying. On the other hand, it most certainly breaks down if ECL isn't used as, well, the *effective* character level.

What's the maximum cohort level a 6th level Drow cleric can get with the Leadership feat? 4th level (4 HD or 2 HD plus Drow ECL)? That's a 4th level character with an an 'effective' 8th level character. That doesn't make sense; obviously, while the leadership feat is acquired at 6 HD, the Drow Cleric can have an ECL 6 (either 6 HD or a 4th level Drow) cohort, just like the 6th level Drow cleric has gear appropriate to an 8th level character.

Why wouldn't the same thing apply to another feat's effects?

Pg 199 of the DMG (Special Cohorts) specifically covers how ECL works with respect to cohorts.

"The effective character level (ECL) of a creature determines how powerful it is as a character or cohort."

 

[Jack Simth]

What's the maximum cohort level a 6th level Drow cleric can get with the Leadership feat? 4th level (4 HD or 2 HD plus Drow ECL)? That's a 4th level character with an an 'effective' 8th level character. That doesn't make sense; obviously, while the leadership feat is acquired at 6 HD, the Drow Cleric can have an ECL 6 (either 6 HD or a 4th level Drow) cohort, just like the 6th level Drow cleric has gear appropriate to an 8th level character.

No matter which way you do that, you get funny effects, especially with high LA critters.

Take a Sorcerer-9 Human Vampire (ECL 17).

If LA boosts leadership, then the Sorcerer could have a human cleric 15 as a cohort.... who could Rebuke the "leader" trivially. Who's the boss again?

If LA does not boost leadership, then the Vampire can't have a vampire cohort - because that would be ECL 9, at a minimum, and he's restricted to an ECL 7 or lower cohort.

Neither is pretty.

House-rule:
If your cohort has the same race and templates you do, then it's level adjustment doesn't affect it's effective character level for purposes of determining how high a level cohort it is.

 

[frankthedm]

Why wouldn't the same thing apply to another feat's effects?

Because they not the same. ECL only rears it's head when the subjects of XP, what level a cohort is treated as, and what the PC is expected to fight crop up.

The ^Ineffective Character Level joke is funny because it is true.

:EDIT: I'll agree it can be read that ECL does determine how powerful your cohort is. :EDIT:
Drow with 6th HD and leadership can have at most a 4th level cohort. That cohort if a drow will wind up having 2 ECL, meaning the drow cohort will have 2HD and 2 LA.

Much like most casters, LA played as written really hurts character level calculations.

 

[eamon]

No matter which way you do that, you get funny effects, especially with high LA critters.

Take a Sorcerer-9 Human Vampire (ECL 17).

If LA boosts leadership, then the Sorcerer could have a human cleric 15 as a cohort.... who could Rebuke the "leader" trivially. Who's the boss again?

That doesn't mean much - a sorcerer might have a barbarian cohort who could kill him in one hit - so?

If ECL is to represent "power" of some sort, then definitely for the purposes of gaining cohorts, you should use not your character level but your ECL. It's most obvious when you consider two creatures of an identical LA race, but houseruling an exception only for identical races hardly helps; where do you draw the line for similar races?

 

[Jhulae]

Because they not the same. ECL only rears it's head when the subjects of XP, what level a cohort is treated as, and what the PC is expected to fight crop up.

The ^Ineffective Character Level joke is funny because it is true.

Drow with 6th HD and leadership can have at most a 4th level cohort. That cohort if a drow will wind up having 2 ECL, meaning the drow cohort will have 2HD and 2 LA.

Much like most casters, LA played as written really hurts character level calculations.

Irdeggman's list of the rules implies your reading is incorrect. A 6th level Drow cleric could have a 4th level Drow whatever (or any other ECL 6) cohort. I tend to agree with that ruling.

 

[irdeggman]

Irdeggman's list of the rules implies your reading is incorrect. A 6th level Drow cleric could have a 4th level Drow whatever (or any other ECL 6) cohort. I tend to agree with that ruling.

Except that the prerequisite for the feat is 6th level character (and ECL does not count towards meeting feat prerequisities) - so the character must have 6 HD in order to meet the feat prerequisites.


But it does appear that his ECL would count towards his leadership score though.

The section on pg 199 gives an example of a character with a leadership score of 8 being able to attract a cohort of level 5. He could have a 5th level human fighter or a lizardfolk with 2 fighter levels or a bugbear with 1 fighter level.